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You have to take care to recognize all the other software and protocols in the fediverse. You can't just call it all "Mastodon".

  • Strong agree (45%, 638 votes)
  • Qualified agree (35%, 494 votes)
  • Qualified disagree (13%, 191 votes)
  • Strong disagree (5%, 73 votes)
1396 voters. Poll end: 1 year ago

Evan Prodromou reshared this.

Unqualified disagree, all four of my large sons are named Mastodon
It's kind of like people calling Wikipedia "wiki". I think it's fine if folks discover the breadth of the fediverse over time. :)
Qualified disagree.

Allow me to elaborate.

Let's... make sure folks are comfortable, first. And then blow their minds with all the options. 🀣 As a person who started using Mastodon this month, and is relatively tech savvy, *I* had a bit of a learning curve, and I rarely do. 🀣

Anyways, once they're "here," they can explore. And when they explore, they can find their herd. :dancingpenguin:
most of us newbies have no idea what this question means, so Mastodon is all we would know to call it.
I feel like sometimes people are saying you should make sure to recognize all of the other software and protocols in the fediverse and say fediverse when people are actually just talking about mastodon; sometimes you are talking about the fediverse, sometimes you're talking about mastodon (sometimes you're talking about something else), use what is relevant for the situation.
extra strong agree, especially when you read uninformed articles that say things like "Interview with the startup Mastodon's CEO eugen on doing an IPO"
is this like the GNU/Linux debate appeared again?
@niomi I have already seen like 5 variations on the rms joke "Mastodon, or as I believe it should properly be called Fediverse/Mastodon..."
@nio
you're probably followed by a ton of tech folks so these results will be terribly skewed
5th option "I dont care" ?
@gaba I figure those people don't answer polls
@gaba also hi, it's good to see you
hi, good to see you too.
I feel that if people call it mastodon and the way they interact with the fediverse is mastodon then why not to call it that way?
@gaba then there are those that need an option for, "choose not to answer, but still want to participate"πŸ˜…
Are people doing this? It seems pretty clear, in all the explainers I've seen, that Mastodon is described as part of the fediverse, not the fediverse itself.
It's actually Fediverse/Mastodon, or, as I've recently started calling it, Fediverse plus Mastodon.
This is Friendica. πŸ‘ˆ
Nope too late!

It's already Mastodon, if you want to change it now you'd need a time machine.
@matoakit

/me builds time machine

/me goes back to Paris in 1817

"Congratulations Baron Cuvier! You've identified an extinct species! I propose you name it 'The Fediverse'."
to the average user, brands are what matters. Mastodon is the foremost brand in the Fediverse. Taking care to inform them of all the layers and alternatives when they mention "mastodon" would be akin to the whole "it's not Linux, it's GNU/Linux, and there are distros, and they all have different names, and let me tell you about their different package managers and here is what a rolling release is and..." thing.
everyone calls the World Wide Web the internet anyway.
You mean Facebook? Grampa switched on the Facebook and checked the timetable of trains, then read the mail. But the Facebook is slow today, possibly have to ask little Johnny to reinstall it. Or buy a larger Facebook, this one's almost 10 years old!
I don’t understand the question. Can I choose to have someone yell at me about this? I want mastolifeline.
Yes, you should promote all the fediverse. Just don't make peoples' first contact too complicated.
I agree with you that, in an ideal world, all people would do this, but at the end of the day you have to accept that some people are going to call all nasal tissue "kleenex" all adhesive medical strips "band-aids" and all fediverse instances "mastodon".

Often this phenomenon occurs because the generalized forms don't "roll off the tongue" as easily. "Fediverse" is a really clunky term, but is also too entrenched to replace easily...
I work professionally in iT for 30 years cans can’t see anyone doing this. Yesterday I used the term URL to friend - she said what’s a URL. Techno info is only of interest to sad little geeks like me πŸ˜‚
Would be "strong agree" except... descriptivism. And also... ultimately unenforceable. Ergo, qualified.
There's this other thing that is called the Web and not ChromeNet, and it's for a reason.
as an only slightly tech savvy Muggle, who doesn’t work in tech, I can’t be bothered to learn all the sub routines and supporting software that is running this thing that I am calling Mastodon. Keep it simple for us dummies please.
Babe, you have to take care to recognize all the other software and protocols in the fediverse!! You can't just call it all "Mastodon"!!!!
crying anime girl meme
@cwebber if we’re talking about federated sites using different protocols is it the multifediverse? (And is there a mirror fediverse filled with evil goateed versions of ourselves?)
I do wish there was a single website called mastodon.com and it told you where to join servers none of which were called mastodon but also maybe some of them have good .com domain names (or .ca, .uk, .eu etc) for the masses
to a point (that point being where the insistance seems like a Stallman impersonation)
Given that nearly three-quarters of computer users still do not understand the difference between a Web Browser and the Internet, I'm not convinced they would understand the distinction between the Fediverse and, effectively, the client, Mastodon.
I think we have to acknowledge that some of Mastodon's wins are earned (not just riding on Fedi). There are reasons it is about 3/4 of the Fediverse by user count.

I only just noticed, for example, that Misskey does NOT have follower-forwarding, so the ease of migrating to a new instance isn't a general Fediverse property.
afraid you can't control what other people call something. They'll call it what they want.

I don't think a lot of people see the distinction between the internet and the web but they are still happy to make use of both.
Oh they could be banned if they call things by unacceotable names! :-)
I do think it's important to make the distinction that Mastodon is just the software package, specifically because most of the criticisms that should be targeted at the dark corners of the federated network are instead being aimed at Mastodon as a whole. It's like getting mad at WordPress because a neonazi made a website from clicking the "WordPress" button in his hosting provider's CPanel interface.
I just call the medium by its instance name, as they are all ActivityPub and even if it’s PixelFed for example it’s all connected through federaction. E.g.: β€œI just joined Octodon”
Depends on the β€œIT”. If I am talking about the most commonly used interface for exchanging group messages with ActivityPub, it absolutely is Mastodon. If I am talking about the architecture that makes ActivityPub possible, it’s the Fediverse.

Mastodon is a user-centric term.
ActivityPub is a programmer-centric term.
Fediverse is a conceptual term that is guaranteed to confuse most new users
Who is β€œyou” in this use case? What is the desired outcome / undesired outcome of this choice? What is the definition of β€œfediverse” in this context?
Normies are unlikely to learn this kind of nonsense.
I said "qualified agree" because of course it is incorrect to not include the rest of the Fediverse, when I run events educating people I always plug "Mastodon and the Fediverse".

That said, the point of the Fediverse is apps are interoperable, and a person can follow PixelFed or BookWyrm accounts from within Mastodon without really understanding they're different software. For simplicity, it may be best for some people to get them started that way.
you're missing the "imagine caring about any of this" option
Is this like the "GNU Linux" vs "Linux" thing? Not to be dismissive but I think it depends on who the "You" is in this question.
who's the audience?

They can start with just Mastodon, and maybe journey along the long path of true enlightenment, if they're up for that
fediverse has too many syllables. Masto is simply easier to say. Fedi is harder to add to a sentence.
As developers yes, but for the general public ... It would be nice, but I mean, I will still just call it Linux, not GNU/Linux. also because screw RMS

grin doesn't like this.

I'm "yeah but fediverse sounds worse than mastodon"
Qualified: casual usage will do whatever it's gonna do, and yelling at folks only pushes them away.

Ref: "Crypto" meaning "cryptocurrencies" rather than the right and proper "cryptography." Notice journos never interview folks who lead with "oh hold on, let me correct your terminology first..."
I say "fediverse" on the fediverse, but "mastodon" irl, because people may have heard of the latter but almost certainly haven't heard of the latter, and I'd rather prioritize understandability over pedantry
Qualified disagree.

While it is great that ActivityPub ties different modes of social medie together, I'm really just here for micro-blogging.

I approve of services like PixelFed, but I'm not really into picture focused social media and it is not included when I talk about Mastodon.
(haven't voted yet)

I think my answer depends on whether the question of taking care to recognize is internal

e.g. "I'm using Mastodon, a popular interface using the ActivityPub protocol to connect with the social web area of the Fediverse, and Mastodon is not an endpoint/destination in itself."

which recognizes that other software and protocols exist without (explicitly) naming them

or

talking with different people, and for brevity doing a summary/tl;dr which will exclude things
@chillicampari "This is my Webfinger address, which is used for discovering my ActivityPub profile URL, which in turn is used to discover my ActivityPub stream URLs."
I agree in principle but it's kind of inevitable (for now) since it's easily the most recognizable app in the #fediverse
I sadly "have to" strongly disagree because you do not "have to" take care and you "can" call it all anything, including "Mastodon".

My real view is closer to "qualified disagree"; the inaccuracy is annoying, but I don't begrudge Mastodon its success; near-zero risk of Google Talk like dominance; and non-abstract brand "Mastodon" might increase abstract "fediverse" success and create larger niche for Mastodon competitors (whom I'm rooting for, doubt RoR app is good for userops or planet).
In 2030 a plurality of fediverse instances will run applications primarily implemented in a _* programming language or system:

* Use your own definitions; of course they are not strict categories but I think semi-useful. Mine are roughly dynamic/auto/slow, static/auto/medium, static/manual/fast, hypothetical presumably computer-generated.

  • scripting (0 votes)
  • application (0 votes)
  • systems (0 votes)
  • ai (0 votes)
Poll end: 1 year ago

2030 is a long time, but also a short time. Applications widely adopted then are likely to exist in some form now. So I guess I'd expect GoToSocial to get a lot more popular in the coming years.
in my mind the iconoclasts on pleroma are just using "mastodon" even if it's not mastodon. Same for the people using mastodon forks. Now, the folks on pixelfed or peertube, those people are our honorable ActivityPub neighbors.

Now granted also in my mind is irritation with that sentiment and a desire to yell something unhelpful like "Actually it's GNU/Mastodon! I mean ActivityPub". I contain multitudes.
A 501(c)(3) forbids any lobbying for 1 …
https://www.w3.org/2022/06/pressrelease-w3c-le.html.en
In the EU this is even stronger.

And this isn't even enough!
Our task should be to enable 6 year old kids to write Fediverse software.
And we should really try to avoid any western, white only view.
The people on the Carteret Islands are amongst the Climate Refugees of Oceania and they do _not_ have Internet.
They have the rusty radio pictured. But if they get a 56k modem, I am pretty sure, they would write the best fediverse software for their people.
More and more states have statenets and we need to be aware of this.

We could rather try to make the silent people louder to level the voice.

Also; Feel free to research where EU funding went yet and no wonder …
The Climate Refugees of the Carteret Islands in Papua New Guinea only have a rusty radio powered by battery to communicate with the outside world.
The Climate Refugees of the Carteret Islands in Papua New Guinea.
Children are doing a procession through the woods.
<cough> *GNUMastodon </cough>
I couldn’t care less about recognising other software and protocols, but reducing the entire Fediverse to β€œMastodon” is firstly plain wrong and misleading whether they’re talking about all fedi or only the mastodon part, and secondly disrespectful to everyone else maintaining the other options and their communities. Just call it the Fediverse, it ain’t any more complicated.
the fediverse is the fediverse. Mastodon is mastodon. Acknowledging components and contributions is important, but how far do we need to go? Throw up a high five to DNS, http, TLS, and tcp/IP every time we talk about an internet application, too?
The question is, what is the context? Ie, explaining to people on Twitter, I say "find me on #Mastodon". Yes I know they can follow me with #Friendica or #Pleroma but "find me on the #Fediverse" doesn't name a concrete thing and that's going to be confusing. If I'm on Pleroma or Friendica I will probably already understand I can interact with Mastodon.

That said, I do want to make sure people know the Fediverse is much more than Mastodon. The question is: when and how to introduce that?
Learn from Kleenex. And Band-Aid. And Xerox. What you want people to call Thing matters little. Colloquial speech will win out. Just ask the makers of Spam.
most people don’t understand enough to use the terms correctly, and the thing that stands out most in their mind will become the dominant way of referring to it. Like my dad saying β€œI am on the Google.β€œ I think stuff like this can be fixed with branding – like if the name is simple and rememberable and had a logo. This is a bad example because another social network already uses the name, but if the Fetiverse was called Hive or something like that, it would get used more.
I am a qualified disagree. There's a time and place to call out all the great services, protocols and software in the fediverse. That time and place are not the first 5 minutes someone has heard of the network. If people say "Mastodon", just say "Mastodon". And then help them along as the learn more.
I appreciate when people take the time to mention ActivityPub, but I would way rather have more people on the network.
When you get a chance, thank the hundreds of people who made this experience possible, and who are making it better every day.

And the people who made this network an incredible social environment.

But let's keep the party rolling and not trip over our own feet.
And feel free to correct my language and framing. I'm on side, happy to be taught.

I may or may not use your phrasing when talking to other people, but I'll listen and remember.
Not really a correction, I just parsed this as:

"what should I do"
(try for clarity)

rather than
"what should I tell other people to do" (nothing, unless they're in immediate danger or they explicitly ask for my advice)
I was a qualified disagree. For the same reasons.
Actually couldn’t agree more
very refined. But you should develop an alter ego who writes essays titled "Mastodon and the ActivityPub protocol", "The ActivityPub/Mastodon FAQ", and most importantly, "Why ActivityPub/Mastodon?" Then go around berating anyone who says only the part after ActivityPub slash. You won't want the serum the wear off because the weight of the fediverse mysteriously rests solely on your shoulders getting the credit they deserve.
I agree with this. Wide adoption is probably of more benefit than wide technical understanding.
Exactly my thought. It’s like trying to promote Linux adoption and telling people β€œactually it’s GNU/Linux”. Once there are multiple applications interacting that are very popular then there’s a better chance people will understand the concept.
almost everyone who uses telephones does not know what dual tone multi-frequency means, and they don’t want to know. They just want it to work. I suspect the same applies for peoples social networking online.
Right, but that's not "calling it all Mastodon." If you're talking about other things, they're not all "Mastodon". If you're talking about just Mastodon, you don't need to drag in all the related networks.
@packy I don't understand the fine distinction you're trying to make. Is it important for us to tease it apart?
No, I'm saying that the poll was poorly worded. Entirely too many people will try to talk about the entire Fediverse and call it all "Mastodon" because that's what they know. It's important to make that distinction.

Conversely, there's no need to drag the rest of the Fediverse into every discussion of Mastodon.
this is a landmine of a question lol

For non-tech beginners I’d say something like:

β€œMastodon connects to the Fediverse, which is a network of apps that can all talk to each other so you’re not locked into one app”.

But ultimately I think it’s human connection that’s more important than terminology when onboarding people. Once people are connected to the Fediverse, whatever you call it, they mainly need worthwhile interactions here to stick around and gradually learn more
I change my mind from strongly agreed to qualified agree. I prefer to call it Fediverse so people immediately have an idea that there is a network.

At the same time, Mastodon is now synonymous with Fediverse, it's a bit like people calling everything (sashimi, maki, etc) in a sushi restaurant sushi
is there another piece of software that does something similar to Mastodon that also speaks ActivityPub that’s similar in usability?
@mattl there are a few! I haven't tried them.
@lanodan "Let me just interject for a moment. What you refer to as 'Mastodon' is in fact Pleroma/Mastodon-FE, or as I've taken to calling it..."
@aeva right! Nevermind fediverse servers, it's always been amazing to me that web apps in general haven't taken this path. But, has to be designed for, evidently a huge barrier.
@aeva
@mlinksva @aeva On a low level it has, see e.g. Puma or uWSGI. But it would be cool to see it on the application level too.
True, Apache mod_* is about the same thing and pretty old.

Framework level would be cool and doesn't sound far-fetched at all. Someone will do it.

@clacke@libranet.de@aeva@mastodon.gamedev.place
@clacke @aeva I'm unfamiliar w/those but C web server exposing low level scripting interface semi-popular forever eg Navi/Tcl, Netscape/js, Apache/mod_*, I guess ngnix/Lua now. Definitely thinking of pushing FastSafeLang impl up to ~framework level, with scripting for only application-specific code. Figure it's a naive thought though considering unpopularity to say the least.

https://mastodon.social/@mpweiher/110502060109056060 and https://blog.metaobject.com/2019/12/the-4-stages-of-objective-smalltalk.html by @mpweiher reminded me of this. Flipped, rarer, but maybe with more potential. In terrms used above, FastSafeLang as superset of easy to learn squishy language.

@clacke @aeva


I think Mojo gets some crucial things right.

https://blog.metaobject.com/2023/06/mojo-is-much-better-without-c-than.html


@mlinksva @aeva @Marcel Weiher I would say that FastSafeLang is a subset of SquishyLang. It's faster and safer because of the things you are no longer allowed to do.

That's if SquishyLang has optional/gradual static typing. Otherwise there's a bridging language of which both languages are a subset.
do you have an existence proof of FastSafeLang βŠ† SquishyLang?

I don't see how that works.

Seems to me that types and eg more control over memory requires more not less of a language, so (after seeing Mojo and reeading @mpweiher's blog) FastSafeLang βŠ‡ SquishyLang is possible, and seems natural.
@mlinksva @Marcel Weiher Various subsets of Python can compile to native.
There is one in particular that requires everything to have type annotations and has some other restrictions like no imperative code in the module top level.

All of the compiled language is valid Python, but not all Python is valid to this compiler. I'll find the name for it, I think it might have been Dropbox that are using it.
@mlinksva @Marcel Weiher Spark vs Ada is an existence proof for SafeLang vs Lang.

asm.js is an existence proof for FastLang vs SquishyLang.
@mlinksva @Marcel Weiher Still can't find the one I'm looking for, but #codon is another recent "slight superset to a subset" of Python approach as opposed to Mojo's "add new stuff" approach to modifying Python.

https://docs.exaloop.io/codon/general/faq

It looks to me, just at a quick glance, that Mojo syntax additions to Python could have been Python-compatible additions in the form of decorators that are noop or validating at runtime on CPython, perhaps validating on mypy, and allowing tight compilation on mojo.
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