Courage to use proper language even though it might disagree with someone.
Personally I cringe at "they" most of the time. For quite a bit of time it wasn't a thing. You used the correct pronoun or best guess pronoun and if it was wrong you were corrected and carried on. No big thing.
“proper language” doesn’t have a universal timeless meaning. It depends on the time and especially the people you’re communicating with. Since there is no meaningful central language authority, no medals are awarded for using any personal and time-specific definition of “proper language”.
Yes, language is living and changing to better fit current needs and social trends.
For me word "they" doesn't have meaning of "some person of non-defined gender". Using it as such feels crude and imprecise substitution - and with no real purpose.
You may disagree of course :) You are free to use language as you see fit because you as a speaker are part of the language. I am not asking for any medals either :)
My initial point is merely that today "they" is so prevalent (and "he/she" seems even surprising) not necessarily because all (most?) people like the convenience but because there is pressure to use it. I don't like it but it happens - for better or worse.
Singular they in English is a little over 600 years old. It’s been recently coopted by non-binary people, but it was already meaning “a person of unknown gender” long before that. It just got a new meaning which is “a person of known non-binary gender”.
Your definition of “proper English” was just missing the historic singular they, which is what made me say there is no such thing as a universal “proper English” in space nor time.
This reply doesn't disagree with my comment above at all :)
I am not arguing this "is wrong" or "shouldn't be used" however used to be relatively rarely used and it was fine - just as it was fine with people who used it anyway. This is language flexibility.
These days the increased use (or non-use) of certain words is often influenced by social pressure. So it is a good question who likes to teach others proper language :)
I'll be brutally honest with you: I have _learned_ #English. I know. Shame. 🎒 Anyway. I've been taught of grammar, including #pronoun's. Not me, not even any teachers I know is aware of the existence of "#they" (apart the ones I've informed about it). That's what I meant. He is taught, She is as well, and the most obviously logical way is to list them all (like "he, she or it" when you don't know even that). I usually use s/he, since I'm a lazy geek, and that form is ancient.
Do you think the language form your teachers learnt and passed on to you is the only correct one? Who’s grading now that you and I are out of school? Am I in trouble?
That's an old and long-running topic. "We" in Europe learn grammar and words and idioms while native people maybe not. What is "correct" may be different from what a living language uses, and non-English languages usually have strict written rules as "official form". I guess there are a few "authoritative sources" of proper English forms, and these are taught; slang and new variations aren't.
My point is that people may have learned an English language which doesn't provide they, xe, ze and other forms, and that's why they use "he or she", "he/she" or "s/he".
It’s true, but there’s a world of difference between “they didn’t know about singular they”, which is entirely plausible and okay, and “they shouldn’t use singular they” although its use has been recorded in English literature as far back as the 14th Century.
Again, there is no universal proper English that your specific teacher would just happen to teach you, and you can just keep learning more usage even outside of school, papers and grades.
Hey, I hate to be that person injecting this into this conversation, but let's not leave this unsaid: You don't seem to have any horse in this race, and people are harmed by you being pedantic about this point that you admit is impossible to be pedantic about *and* correct, so maybe don't be?
I'm always irritated, when someone addresses a group of female persons with "guys". Concerning "they": I didn't knew that the word could be used that way until you introduced it, I guess. Now I'm mostly thinking: "Why on earth don't we have something like this in German as well?"
So, "he or she" tends to cause a reflexive "urk" in me and also is exlcusionary of any gender that isn't fully cis-male or cis-female and so I dislike reading it. Though not as much as I dislike just reading "he" when there's no reason to expect a gender. I prefer "They" by far.
However, I don't think "they" is more convenient if you aren't explicitly thinking about gender things; I agree with the sentiment that many if not most who use it find "he or she" to be their* natural way of thinking. I agree there's room to critique "he or she", I just don't think "convenience" is the way.
* I did not even notice this usage when writing at first - precisely my point that usage is often what comes by default.
Alexander
Hypolite Petovan
Alexander
Personally I cringe at "they" most of the time. For quite a bit of time it wasn't a thing. You used the correct pronoun or best guess pronoun and if it was wrong you were corrected and carried on. No big thing.
Not the case today.
Hypolite Petovan
Alexander
Yes, language is living and changing to better fit current needs and social trends.
For me word "they" doesn't have meaning of "some person of non-defined gender". Using it as such feels crude and imprecise substitution - and with no real purpose.
You may disagree of course :) You are free to use language as you see fit because you as a speaker are part of the language. I am not asking for any medals either :)
My initial point is merely that today "they" is so prevalent (and "he/she" seems even surprising) not necessarily because all (most?) people like the convenience but because there is pressure to use it. I don't like it but it happens - for better or worse.
Hypolite Petovan
Your definition of “proper English” was just missing the historic singular they, which is what made me say there is no such thing as a universal “proper English” in space nor time.
Alexander
I am not arguing this "is wrong" or "shouldn't be used" however used to be relatively rarely used and it was fine - just as it was fine with people who used it anyway. This is language flexibility.
These days the increased use (or non-use) of certain words is often influenced by social pressure. So it is a good question who likes to teach others proper language :)
Hypolite Petovan
Alexander
silverwizard
grin
grin
Hypolite Petovan
grin
Anyway. I've been taught of grammar, including #pronoun's. Not me, not even any teachers I know is aware of the existence of "#they" (apart the ones I've informed about it).
That's what I meant. He is taught, She is as well, and the most obviously logical way is to list them all (like "he, she or it" when you don't know even that). I usually use s/he, since I'm a lazy geek, and that form is ancient.
Hypolite Petovan
grin
I guess there are a few "authoritative sources" of proper English forms, and these are taught; slang and new variations aren't.
grin
Hypolite Petovan
Again, there is no universal proper English that your specific teacher would just happen to teach you, and you can just keep learning more usage even outside of school, papers and grades.
grin
silverwizard
You don't seem to have any horse in this race, and people are harmed by you being pedantic about this point that you admit is impossible to be pedantic about *and* correct, so maybe don't be?
Michael Vogel
Alexander
Some started using this in Russian.
Michael Vogel
EmeraldMagus
However, I don't think "they" is more convenient if you aren't explicitly thinking about gender things; I agree with the sentiment that many if not most who use it find "he or she" to be their* natural way of thinking. I agree there's room to critique "he or she", I just don't think "convenience" is the way.
* I did not even notice this usage when writing at first - precisely my point that usage is often what comes by default.
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