A lot of people worry that commercial networks joining the fediverse will inevitably take over the network, "like Gmail took over email."
Except, y'know, Gmail hasn't taken over email.
There are 4.5B active email users (Radicati), 1.5B Gmail users (CNBC). About 1/3.
Maybe all the people you know use Gmail.
Maybe that says more about the people you know than about the state of the email network.
Email remains robust, decentralized and diverse in 2023.
Except, y'know, Gmail hasn't taken over email.
There are 4.5B active email users (Radicati), 1.5B Gmail users (CNBC). About 1/3.
Maybe all the people you know use Gmail.
Maybe that says more about the people you know than about the state of the email network.
Email remains robust, decentralized and diverse in 2023.
This entry was edited (1 year ago)
Craig Maloney β
•And I'd argue that email is waning for folks that haven't taken control of their inbox, but that's a separate, very long rant (erm, "discussion" π )
Evan Prodromou
•Craig Maloney β
•Returning you to your regularly scheduled thread. π
mav :happy_blob:
•After self-hosting my email for twenty-three years I have thrown in the towel. The oligopoly has won.
cfenollosa.comEvan Prodromou
•I'd say that Open Source email servers are some of the most miserable pieces of software to work with on the planet.
I have a personal email server and keeping it running suuuuuuucks.
We need better email client and server software!
Lily Star
•mav :happy_blob:
•I take it that since you have an email server you disagree with the author's difficulties in actually getting messages delivered.
Evan Prodromou
•DrJekyll
•I use a 3rd party to host the email for the domains and my name registrar has clear steps on now to setup the security / antispam features required.
Probably took a couple of hours to setup (most of the time waiting for things to propagate).
But yes, running hardware yourself is more involved of course, I'm just wanting to point out that there is a 'middle ground' π
Dan Shick
•the reason is spam, and the response of the dominant email providers to that spam. i believe if we had fewer monolithic email providers, weβd have better email client and server software that could handle that spam. as it stands, the few big sites call all the shots.
Dan Shick
•i suppose you can argue the reversal of cause and effect here too, but i think some of us in the discussion will still perceive you as failing to respond to the meat of the argument put before you.
Evan Prodromou
•Could you put forward the meat of the argument?
I think "we're worried" is fine, but "Gmail took over email" is factually untrue.
Dan Shick
•how about βdonβt you think giant for-profit companies will continue to screw over the open internet, specifically the fediverse?β but perhaps youβve already answered that to your own satisfaction. sorry to bother!
Evan Prodromou
•I think that people who say that Network X is going to ruin the fediverse are the same people who say that the fediverse will never be viable until it includes Network X.
You can think of a million reasons why the fediverse is going to fail, or why every good thing that happens is actually bad.
Or you can build the network and make social software more free.
Dan Shick
•The Radicati Group, Inc. Β» New Announcements Reports Β» Email Statistics Report, 2015-2019
www.radicati.comEvan Prodromou
•https://www.radicati.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2020/12/Email-Statistics-Report-2021-2025-Executive-Summary.pdf
Evan Prodromou
•Dan Shick
•Evan Prodromou
•AFAIK, it's the gold standard for email network statistics. I'd love to hear better stats from an open publication!
SΓΆren
•Charles Roper
•1. Outlook.com
2. Microsoft 365 (work email)
3. Around 10 email forwarders associated with personal domains and products
4. Several IMAP/SMTP accounts on cPanel domains w/Roundcube web client
5. A couple of Tutanota accounts
6. A Protonmail account
7. Paid up Firefox Relay customer
8. DuckDuckGo Email Protection relay user
9. Mailbird email client on desktop
10. Several GMail accounts
Email is beautiful in its diverse, multi-faceted glory.
cc @chriscoyier
Jim Parsons
•β’ any #Fediverse self-hosted instance as easy to set up as a Facebook account
β’ #Fediverse must easily straddle;
- PRIVATE
consumer individual family safe spaces
#privacy #encryption
β OPENWEB
shared public resource, common carrier status,
actual virtual-public-square not #Elmo absolutist illusion w/corp asses covered by #Section230
β’ SysAdmin a pain = opportunity
β’ market for #Privacy enabled
β’ new Laws needed, incumbents will resist
dick_turpin
•I see so many people think that so many projects or movements are bigger than they actually are, mainly because they rarely step outside of the cacoon usage or interaction.
MikeK
•Guillaume Ross
•Evan Prodromou
•A, B and C are people with email addresses.
B has Gmail, A and C do not.
There are nine possible email messages: A to B, A to C, B to A, B to C, C to A, C to B, A to B and C, B to A and C, C to A and B.
Only 2/9 or about 22% don't go through Gmail.
"I see a lot of stuff come through Gmail" is reasonable, but it doesn't mean everybody uses Gmail.
Guillaume Ross
•I think it's not that big of a problem as I never felt like I *had* to have a gmail email account, but I do feel like self-hosting has gotten much worse in the last decade or two due to hard to use software, aggressive spam filtering on the big providers that are biased against small ones etc.
Jons Mostovojs
•Jons Mostovojs
•Jons Mostovojs
•Even more finally: analogy is not an argument. While arguing with people who use analogy as an argument, it's more sound to point that out rather than finding a counter-analogy which may or may not be analogous enough. π
Evan Prodromou
•Kaleissin
•Michael Roberts
•Meta will do the same for the fediverse. Embrace, extend, and attempt to extinguish, because even a tiny additional shard of market share is worth any amount of irritation for others, if it doesn't cost me anything.
Szymon SokΓ³Ε π΅π±πͺπΊπΊπ¦
•Evan Prodromou
•Floyd
•Both of those markets were once filled with many small and medium sized players.
Not saying the same will happen, I'm too new here to draw conclusions... But most markets that grow this way end up with 3-5 companies carving over 90% between them.
Karen Simpson
•And there goes ActivityPub....
M$ excels at that, see ActiveDirectory vs LDAP.
Google's more clever, they push DKIM and alike "in the name of security" ('cos "think of the children" won't stick,.it's not encryption) and then block your email 'cos it's spam.
The net result will be that those who are now using the fediverse will keep on doing so, and the newcomer "normies" will use a fediverse based on an incompatible doctored ActivityPub .
Then there's datascraping but they can do that with a simple client.
@cuchaz
Evan Prodromou
•I am not scared of anyone joining this network. *They* are coming to *us*, not the other way around.
We are a robust and resilient network. We are gaining more and more people, implementations, and communications content every single day.
We have the power in this situation. Let's start acting like it.
Karen Simpson
•https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish
"Our" network is not imune to that.
Others on this thread also highlighted how Google EEE'd XMPP. The list goes on, ActivityPub is not free from risk.
And I'm cynical.
@cuchaz
Microsoft business strategy in acquiring software platforms
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Evan Prodromou
•We all benefit when big companies support open standards.
JSkier :archlinux: :debian:
•Sarah Brown
•Evan Prodromou
•Phil L.
•Gmail is only used to enable my Android devices
I could imagine a lot of people use this paradigm
Dietmar
•The numbers are hardly comparable. I doubt Gmail processes one third of email traffic. Maybe 10 percent
Paul Turnbull π¨π¦ πΊπ¦ π΅πΈ
•Mark Connolly π» π΄πΌββοΈ (he, him, his)
•Evan Prodromou
•PΔteris KriΕ‘jΔnis
•I can. I might not want to, it wouldn't be worth my time. But still - I can roll out my own server, and there are literately hundreds of very good mail services. And while running email server has been challenging last 15 years, core is still the same.
So yes, actual federation matters and being afraid someone swooping in is pointless at the moment.
matdevdug
•Richard
•Johannes Ernst
•Matthew Jones
•My accountant uses Hotmail. π€¦ββοΈ
Filipe
•Either way, I believe the right "conspiracy theory" would be to accuse Gmail, Microsoft and Yahoo of oligopoly, and not just Gmail of monopoly.
GNU Too
•Evan Prodromou
•https://www.forbes.com/sites/siladityaray/2023/03/10/meta-is-working-on-a-decentralized-twitter-alternative-reportedly-codenamed-p92/
Meta Is Creating A Decentralized Twitter Alternative Reportedly Codenamed βP92β
Siladitya Ray (Forbes)GNU Too
•Evan Prodromou
•Bogie B. π¨π¦ πΊπΈ
•Dermot Casey
•Essem :skeeter:
•TinCoyote
•There is a robust and decentralized email ecosystem.
But with Google having a 25% market share, gives them an awfully big stick to wield when it comes to influencing standards and attitudes. You don't need to be market majority to be a possible malignancy on the entire ecosystem.
Aswath Rao
•Anthony Bosio
•Chris
•My gut feeling is that as most businesses rely on either gmail or some Microsoft thing, most communication invariably touches their servers.
This puts them in the powerful position to set the rules you either play by or are excluded.
This is not about blame, but to caution: I expect similar spam patterns to email to emerge with activitypub.
mr_daemon
•If I may expand this thought: I'm a SRE/systems administrator by trade and I have setup my fair share of MTA/MDA stacks -- all you needed back then to run email was a static ip, a matching reverse DNS name, MX records and someone who knows what they are doing to some degree. 1/2