I decided to take some time to reflect on some of the #QuoteBoost discourse, from the lens of moderation and community development. I expect these are not new thoughts since there's a lively discourse to which I'm largely oblivious.
Special thanks to @futurebird, whose posts have been especially illuminating for me.
https://write.as/collisiondomain/some-thoughts-on-quote-boosts
Some thoughts on Quote Boosts
I have read many intricate discussions about quote-boosting content on the fediverse, and like many others before me, I have concluded that this is a case where nearly everyone is right. However, these conversations and debates have convinced me that the fediverse, not Mastodon alone, provides the flexibility for the future of social media.I want to start by acknowledging the diligent and thoughtful work that has gone into many of these conversations. I have learned a lot from @futurebird's case for a âQuote Boostâ function, and I must admit she has nearly single-handedly swayed my mind. My largely negative experiences with quote tweets on Twitter were frequent, but her posts helped me understand how the benefits can outweigh the potential harms. I have become convinced of their value to marginalized communities in organizing by learning about their role in social movements on Twitter.
Mastodon should add support for this feature and allow server admins or users to decide if they want to see or participate in Quote Boosting. Attribution is critical and legitimate integration provides better support for safety and moderation tools to address the real problems the anti-quote boost community fears.
Attribution and moderation
We must conduct this conversation while acknowledging that Mastodon posts are already being quote boosted so we can fully understand the consequences of the choice to avoid direct integration with the platform. For now, we will take a step back from the broader fediverse applications that provide built-in quote boosting, such as Misskey, and focus on the workarounds within the Mastodon ecosystem.The single most crucial missing feature from the current moderation interfaces is contextualization. For context, I am a moderator for the SFBA.social Mastodon instance. We have a reasonably sized but quite active user base. Our fortune has forced my fellow moderators and me to reflect critically on the tools we have available for moderation. When we receive reports of specific posts, we often have to spend many minutes navigating to the reported user's profile and attempting to uncover the context of the post in question. This process is extremely time-intensive and can make revealing incomplete or malicious reports laborious. I have now seen two types of faux-quote boost chains, which each wasted 20+ minutes of my life.
A tale of screenshots
The first is a tale where users âquote boostedâ by searching the other's profile for the âreplyâ to their post, responding with a post containing a screenshot of the target post. The result was a series of vile posts, the same as anti-quote boosting arguments reference, connected only by screenshots.Both users received corrective moderation action. However, it took me more than 20 minutes to track down all of the (~10) posts and create a timeline of links in a text file I created separately from the Mastodon service. The dispute appears to have been in flight for nearly a week before someone brought it before the moderators. I do not know if the software developers participate in moderation, but it is difficult to imagine they've used the moderation tools by their design. I cannot imagine the experience for the moderators of Mastodon.social. It must be a truly miserable experience.
Whatever concerns may be levied against quote boosts, they will leave a trail that can be quickly inspected and addressed by moderators. Their implementation also provides an additional signal for moderation action. If we see a user engaging in screenshot quote boosting today, we have to treat them as potentially good-faith actors who are missing a tool. If Mastodon added quote boost support, we start from an assumption of malice â since the user is trying to hide the connection.
A Tale of Links
The other âquote boostâ format I have experienced is via link chains. This style of QB is achieved by copying/pasting a link to the original post into a new post. This is a significant improvement over the screenshot approach. I expect this to be the experience I would have had Mastodon implemented the QB feature. The problem with this style is that it is rarely used. Many 3rd party clients will render the other toot like a âquote tweet,â but not all willâmost unfortunately, not the moderation interface.If you want to engage in faux-quote boosting, do your mods a favor and take the time to embed a link instead of a screenshot. We may not reach out, but it is very appreciated. It would be extremely helpful if the Mastodon service made this pathway frictionless and provided an âunrollâ option in the moderation interface. After all, the big benefit of quote boosting is rich links
We can be better with the same tools
There is an oft-repeated argument in these debates that the lack of a quote boost âmakes us betterâ somehow than Twitter. This position has been comprehensively analyzed and critiqued by advocates of the quote boost feature. Instead, I'd like to propose that everyone here is correct. Yes, quote boosts make âgotchasâ and dunks easier. It also lets people know they've been referenced and creates a trail for moderators to follow if those actions are against community standards.It is not the presence, or lack of, a specific feature that makes Mastodon better than Twitter. It's our grass-roots, distributed nature. Small instances are more common than large ones, and small teams of moderators and active communities create an expectation of respect in a way I've never witnessed on Twitter. Let's take it a step further and show all the folks over there how helpful and fun quote boosts are when used responsibly and with admin teams that care about their users.
Pie
•John (he/him) :vbike:
•isaacs
•1 quote boosts lead to abuse
2 a boosted reply is equivalent to a quote boost
What stops someone from replying with a dunk, and then boosting it and the original post, for their followers to pile on? Because that happens now, and is more costly to moderate.
"Craven simps too cowardly to reply" doesn't hold water. Trolls *usually* reply, that's how it works.
Ian Ramjohn
•myrmepropagandist
•In examining why I care about this issue so much, I think one of the more personal reasons is due to finding much more value in replies & being quoted with a reply than in likes or boosts.
What we have here is a system that needs boosts to work and blocks quotes.
josemanuel
•So, letâs see whether those master âorganisersâ decide to move their asses and get what theyâre asking for.
@iramjohn
myrmepropagandist
•josemanuel
•Listen, those who want that feature canât code, and those who can, either donât want that feature, or already have it implemented, but not on Mastodon or any of its forks. If youâre willing to live with the status quo, thatâs alright with me. I do have quote posts on this instance, but, with all due respect, your stance is simply ineffective.
myrmepropagandist
•Anyone can do that.
Though, given that most of the forks of Mastodon are implementing QT I don't think it's true that "those who want that feature canât code" Just something you see to be assuming for some reason.
josemanuel
•Good luck convincing admins of installing a new tool because some people who couldnât be bothered to do it themselves want some feature that the whole Fediverse is divided about and has barely been used for years even where it is available. Also good luck convincing Mastodon developers of supporting at least showing those quote-posts as theyâre meant to appear instead of just as links. Finally, good luck convincing moderators of working much more for free.
I already gave you a solution, but as a really wise man said, YDHTTMWFI.
ink
•we just have to get used to what the brand wants or expect dissenting users to change to another implementation altogether.
(mastodon reads like a brand to me at this point. that is not good for any FOSS code.)
myrmepropagandist
•It's tempting to buy-in to the idea that ugly way QTs from other services look on mastodon servers is a conspiracy-- but I don't want to totally jump to that conclusion.
It's better for all of us if this can be ... cooperative.
https://joinmastodon.org/roadmap
Public Roadmap
joinmastodon.orgink
•And Mastodon kinda does have the image that the devs do what they want as they might be on a power trip. There's no reason whatsoever to not have implemented Misskey's QTs yet, or custom emoji reactions. Indeed, they haven't even implemented unicode emoji reactions.
They haven't implemented five-option polls. They haven't implemented support for more than four images. They want to baby their userbase like GNOME does their desktop environment's users by removing anything that a human could find confusing; however they try to make it into a perfect work of art instead, because they don't actually care about implementing features or perfecting the user experience.
And I don't care much for Mastodon's success either, because of "The Mastodon Network" being a thing at all. And I will not use expletives here but I really would like to, because they're being really hostile to basically anyone who doesn't run mainstream official Mastodon code.
It's not pessimism. It's hatred.
myrmepropagandist
•(NOT doubting you at all. I just have not been around here for years and don't know the history. I was shocked to see that features and issues that I was raising as if new have languished in the discussion and known bugs sections of github for years. I am "Concerned" and remain "Concerned" -- )
How did it go down? Tell me more.
đČ>tfw can't snug klonoa IRL đ”đ±|đșđž
•https://archive.fo/k26Ij
The end result of this mindset however is more pronounced outside of Mastodon's mainline branch. There's forks like Fedibird, Glitch-Soc, and Hometown with Mastodon that add in emoji reacts, quote posts, and the like. These are features that mainline Mastodon has lagged beyond and there's a reason for that: Eugen didn't create them either.
Wander further into the sphere of Misskey and Pleroma and you'll notice t... show more
https://archive.fo/k26Ij
The end result of this mindset however is more pronounced outside of Mastodon's mainline branch. There's forks like Fedibird, Glitch-Soc, and Hometown with Mastodon that add in emoji reacts, quote posts, and the like. These are features that mainline Mastodon has lagged beyond and there's a reason for that: Eugen didn't create them either.
Wander further into the sphere of Misskey and Pleroma and you'll notice that they absolutely love to add new features, and the people who use these features tend to get hooked on them. This isn't always the case, as Soapbox-FE only supports limited emoji reacts (I've heard the reason for that is that Alex does not want to add negative reacts to the site him and his wife run to slow userbase deterioration) despite numerous people asking him for it. But lately in the fediverse all the new features get added by the Misskey or Pleroma devs (or one of their fork devs). I'm talking about quote posting, emoji reacts, better moderation tools (you can ban problem users from your instance as opposed to entire domains), and whatnot.
There's also numerous forks of them as well, either website specific forks or forks because features wouldn't be added into mainline Pleroma/Misskey.
Welcome to nginx eaa1a9e1db47ffcca16305566a6efba4!193.227.196.7
archive.foEverybody loves Gordo
•tallship
•calls them “notes” is because that’s what they are actually called in #ActivityPub - there are also other types, that other platforms use as well, including “article”, although, instances like #qoto have set the character count for notes at 65535 🙂
It’s been covered in this thread already that Quote Posts are simply beyond the control of mastodon devs, Eugen’s edicts, or local mastodon users or admins, because most other platforms support it and there isn’t anything #mastopub can do about it. In Misskey, users can disallow it, but that only affects other local users, so it’s s moot point (except for silo instances).
There are very few Fediverse platforms that aren’t taking advantage of most thing
... show morecalls them ânotesâ is because thatâs what they are actually called in #ActivityPub - there are also other types, that other platforms use as well, including âarticleâ, although, instances like #qoto have set the character count for notes at 65535 đ
Itâs been covered in this thread already that Quote Posts are simply beyond the control of mastodon devs, Eugenâs edicts, or local mastodon users or admins, because most other platforms support it and there isnât anything #mastopub can do about it. In Misskey, users can disallow it, but that only affects other local users, so itâs s moot point (except for silo instances).
There are very few Fediverse platforms that arenât taking advantage of most things that are possible, for example, #Soapbox now has federated events, and introduced custom emoji reactions like Misskey has, and live chat - Misskeyâs traditionally led the way with these federating features with #Calckey going even further.
Some platforms however, intentionally incorporate a leaner set of features; #Smithereen is one example, it doesnât even sccomodate boosts, which harkens back to #Myspace, #VKontakte (aka, âVKâ - not sure I spelled that right), and very early #Faceplant days. #Epicyon has anti-silo capabilities baked in.
#Mitra has #Substack style subscriptions at itâs core. Anyone can subscribe remotely from any Fediverse server instance where the user can receive DMs - and in congruence with privacy concerns that are typically expected for Fediverse implementations, itâs based on #Monero (XMR).
Most platforms also support #Markdown, with Cakckey being perhaps supporting the greatest superset IIRC, including #LaTEX, and #Friendica, being much older than msstodon, has continued to evolve over the past decade and still has support for #BBCode too, and direct links for uploading images for those who prefer to.
I didnât see any mention of Markdown support when I bothered to look at the mastopub roadmap, yet even on that platform, Quote Posts are all throughout the stream and people boost and reply to them as the time - and, as mentioned earlier, anyone can create a post, simply pasting the link from someone elseâs post, and then boost that⊠Voila! Local #Quote_Post.
mastodon was successful in its arrogance of leveraging some pretty graphics and welcoming verbiage into a brand that Eugen weaponized against virtually all other Fediverse platforms, and now, with all of the fine forks like #Hometown and several newcomers, weâll soon be seeing hardforking as a result of that hostility.
But not just forks, funding and ambitious development as evidenced by existing and emerging platforms like #Cloudflareâs #Wildebeest, Tumbler, and the very unique, #Django based TakahÄ Fediverse server that I wrote about here:
https://tallship.writeas.com/takahe-a-new-fediverse-paradigm
Average people are already migrating in larger numbers everyday away from the archaic mastodonian resource hog to other, more capable and promising (and friendlier) platforms elsewhere in the Fediverse that have integrated and fully support #masto_migration, and even ones that donât (yet) haver that feature.
Unlike other dinosaurs and the eponymous mammal for which Eugen chose the namesake of his #TootSuite product, we shouldnât expect extinction for his platform, but the apathy and indifference levels are rising, as is the enmity in many sectors of the community for what others perceive as a betrayal (or sellout), and that kind of self-inflicted damage is often difficult to mitigate, with waves of disenchantment reverberating get into the future⊠Just look at what happened to #SourceForge - it still technically exists, but never recovered after the community betrayal it committed years ago.
And finally, thereâs a irony so obvious thatâs itâs not even plausible to deny⊠Eugen subverted the very rudimentary principal that the Fediverse network is ideologically predicated upon - #DeSoc⊠Thereâs no question that his goals shifted to that if building a silo for himself, at least to some great degree. Very sad.
An interesting thing about condescending others, you find yourself alone and isolated in an otherwise vibrant, busy world.
#tallship #Takahe #ActivityPub #privacy #community_values #FOSS
â”
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tallship
2023-01-20 02:02:49
đČ>tfw can't snug klonoa IRL đ”đ±|đșđž
•Good post, there's also a few things I've wanted to add too.
Eugen's "Mastodon Network" branding combined with his tendency to silo users towards instances with a specific political viewpoint has somewhat neutered media attempts to promote or run hit pieces on the platform. Blueticks were signing up for instances, getting banned for no reason with no way to move to another instance easily (because getting banned blocks that usually), and going back to Twitter. It's also neutered hit pieces as journalists with no idea of the network will run a hit piece on "The Mastodon Network" instead. Case in point, a hit piece alleging it was full of CP and making the bold accusation that Eugen is trying to hide a CP problem didn't even name other instance software and while it named the fediverse, it only named GNU Social.
The other thing is that the branding thing Mastodon went for can be done better. Soapbox/Rebased is a great example of this. Soapbox has a UI designed to be easy for someone who grew up with phones and Twitter to use with no experience, as opposed to Mastodon bei
... show moreGood post, there's also a few things I've wanted to add too.
Eugen's "Mastodon Network" branding combined with his tendency to silo users towards instances with a specific political viewpoint has somewhat neutered media attempts to promote or run hit pieces on the platform. Blueticks were signing up for instances, getting banned for no reason with no way to move to another instance easily (because getting banned blocks that usually), and going back to Twitter. It's also neutered hit pieces as journalists with no idea of the network will run a hit piece on "The Mastodon Network" instead. Case in point, a hit piece alleging it was full of CP and making the bold accusation that Eugen is trying to hide a CP problem didn't even name other instance software and while it named the fediverse, it only named GNU Social.
The other thing is that the branding thing Mastodon went for can be done better. Soapbox/Rebased is a great example of this. Soapbox has a UI designed to be easy for someone who grew up with phones and Twitter to use with no experience, as opposed to Mastodon being a total pain at times. Instead of running PR online, Alex prefers to make something that anyone can use.
The major problem with Soapbox/Rebased is that the developer has a hate army following him over his views on the transgender community (which basically call out the community), who will harass instance operators and threaten to block them (if they aren't posting wrongthink) and focus on the developer's political views over any aspect of the code, while whining that their Mastodon instance with 10 people crashed again. If this sounds crazy, a fedi admin who tried to contribute to GoToSocial got yelled at by the dev of it for even talking to Alex.
https://shitposter.club/notice/ASaCuox2fO9CZ11Jlg
Or how about someone getting a pull request to a website's modified code complaining about Alex:
https://gitlab.com/awoo.fyi/howler/-/issues/1
Or a while back some viral post sharing a nginx command to block all connections to Pleroma servers and whatnot, and making a blocklist of all servers:
https://ligma.pro/@r000t/109396033621130514
This mindset is also shared among Twitter refugees up to date with the latest drama, because the truth is, people who aren't extremely online and addicted to fedi meta drama don't even know anything about either side and could care less. I saw a left wing anarchist account on .social sharing fe.soapbox.pub the other day, which lets you log into your Mastodon instance and post there with Soapbox as the frontend.
At the same time, mainline Mastodon is lagging behind literally every single popular fediverse instance/server software in terms of features, okay maybe not behind GS, GoToSocial, and a few other dead ones. But the situation with it reminds me a lot of what's happened to Pleroma as of late.
Pleroma has had two forks that have gone in their own direction and added in features Pleroma wouldn't add. Rebased has added some from Akkoma and Pleroma, and Akkoma is basically "custom reactions the fork" and while the updates for Akkoma are literally "breaking shit for the sake of it" at times, the selling point is custom reactions. Reactions won't even make sense if you don't even use a Mastodon fork however because mainline Mastodon does not support these while Misskey, Pleroma (and it's forks), and whatnot do already. This happened for a different reason of course, both drama with Alex Gleason acting as a product leader (he's mellowed out some after only working on his own fork), and Lain taking a long break from the project to the point of seemingly being MIA online.
I'm seeing the same thing with fedibird, hometown, glitch-soc, and more Mastodon forks and while they might not fix Mastodon's resource hogging issue, they have features Eugen won't add. It's even worse because Mastodon isn't stalling development wise, Eugen is just not listening to the reality that the fedi is moving on without him. Nobody has been able to totally subvert the fedi since no single instance has gained critical mass (see e-mail) and the userbase there is absolutely anti-corporate, the media would rather let it rot in silence than try to shut it down because it's very hard to shut it down.
Sexy Moon
2023-02-11 21:55:56
You're very likely to get defederated on lots of instances (#1) · Issues · awoo.fyi / Howler · GitLab
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