Exactly! Big companies didn’t “take over” Linux. Instead, they dumped cash and code into it and Linux is so much better than it was 20 years ago. I can only imagine how much the Fediverse will change and evolve in 20 years.
you don't think so? I'm thinking of the (IMO outsized) commercial influence there's been on RFCs in the last 20 years, and the goog's exertion of control over the Android ecosystem despite it being based on Linux. I guess not exactly EEE, but still, corporate control over things that were previously more open. I mean, I'm glad more of Big Tech is coming here, I just don't trust them at all and I think we should watch them carefully.
I was using Android as an example earlier today! One of the original uses of the term was for Microsoft strategy towards Java. Fast forward to 2023, when we have literally billions of Java devices, none of which are made or controlled by Microsoft.
Google embraced standards via XMP i gtalk.. They then extended them in proprietary ways, with Hangouts rather than gtalk. They then deprecated gtalk in favor of Hangouts, and will finally extinguish it.
I don't think it was intentional, it's just an emergent property of capital and profit-motivated enterprise. It makes 100% sense, but it can still be bad.
it was, though. Just because we don't define a thing we want to do explicitly doesn't mean we didn't take an action that lead to a result through a functionally identical method.
@arcade this. And while XMPP was not entirely extinguished, it took a huge hit. Google got a lot of good press from it (from FOSS people, no less) and then when enough people moved to GTalk thinking "well it's still just XMPP!", they did a bait-and-switch and boom, no XMPP in GTalk suddenly.
My hypothesis is that they never cared about XMPP in the first place, but it was easy to deploy and gave them a nice PR boost from the techies that started promoting them with glee.
And then when enough users joined GTalk — partially brought in by the techies, partially calmed down by techies not warning them against it — they shut down XMPP s2s and moved away from the protocol eventually.
I agree that XMPP had (and continues to have) a bunch of problems, in no small aprt related to the XEP compatibility matrix insanity — which to be fair they are now finally trying to reign in.
And I am not saying GTalk leaving "cased problems with the network", which sounds like implying *technical* problems. I am saying XMPP was basically mined for user base and techies' goodwill.
@rysiek I think you vastly overestimate the importance of XMPP to the success, such as it was, of GTalk.
Regardless, we agree that it was not an intentional strategy to join the network, create incompatible non-standard extensions, and use that advantage to take over the network.
yes, we largely agree on that. ut as I mentioned in a different branch of this thread, harm des not need to be intentional or pre-planned to be harm nonetheless.
I do not need to assume intentional pre-planned malice on Meta's part to be very seriously concerned about P92.
Fedi is tiny compared to Meta. Power differential is immense. Incentives are completely different. There's a lot to be concerned about.
And saying "the fediverse is taking over big companies" just brushes that aside.
there's a world of difference between "XMPP is what allowed GTalk to grow", which is absurd, and "Google used XMPP to help grow GTalk, and then dumped it", which is a pretty decent description of what happened IMVHO.
Either way, XMPP was far worse-off after that, in ways I do not believe it would be if Google never touched it.
And if we are not careful, same might happen with fedi and P92.
One of the reasons google's chat had any momentum was because it worked with jabber. That's why it was used. Otherwise they would have no one on the network.
Since geeks saw it was "open" and compatible with what they were using *THEY WERE THE FIRST ADOPT THE NETWORK*.
now you're with semantics. I am worried about how this will affect fedi, you are splitting hairs about whether this will come as a "strategy" or just Zuckerberg having a bad day.
You barged into a thread about whether embrace, extend and extinguish ever worked. I said it didn't, and you gave a bunch of examples that weren't EEE.
When I said you should check the actual topic of conversation, you said you were well aware of the definition, which you clearly weren't!
That is one incredibly naive take and it is deeply worrying to see it from someone in your position.
Capitalism has unabatedly invaded and monetized every facet of life it could for longer than I can remember…
To take an example from just yesterday: Docker.
But also GitHub with its Pilot AI.
The FOSS space is getting progressively more monetized, which is a feedback loop giving more power to those with more money. This is not a good development.
@phryk one possible reason is that someone in my position might have thought about this much much more than you have, and it might be you who needs to spend more time considering the topic.
Perhaps because it was not in the best interest of Google for #RSS to succeed? At the end of the day RSS does not work well for ads or #tracking, as opposed to proprietary content feeds.
Kevin Fox
•Evan Prodromou
•Aljoscha Rittner (beandev)
•But this includes spam. 🙄
Travis Newton 👨💻
•JR
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•James M.
•Evan Prodromou
•James M.
•Evan Prodromou
•arkywarky
•Evan Prodromou
•arkywarky
•Evan Prodromou
•So, your hypothesis for why XMPP isn't the default messaging system in 2023 is that Google Talk supported it for a while, then stopped?
And further, that it was an intentional strategy to destroy the XMPP network?
arkywarky
•Evan Prodromou
•arkywarky
•Evan Prodromou
•An embrace, extend, extinguish strategy has to be a strategy.
And, like I said originally, it hasn't ever worked, as a strategy.
arkywarky
•Evan Prodromou
•Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•@evan
Evan Prodromou
•So, in this theory, the growth of GTalk was due to its support of XMPP?
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•My hypothesis is that they never cared about XMPP in the first place, but it was easy to deploy and gave them a nice PR boost from the techies that started promoting them with glee.
And then when enough users joined GTalk — partially brought in by the techies, partially calmed down by techies not warning them against it — they shut down XMPP s2s and moved away from the protocol eventually.
@arcade
Evan Prodromou
•Google dropping XMPP wasn't the cause of the problems with that network. It was a symptom of the problems with that network.
You need to read what "embrace, extend and extinguish" means.
It doesn't mean "support an open standard for a while then drop it."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace%2C_extend%2C_and_extinguish?wprov=sfla1
Microsoft business strategy in acquiring software platforms
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•I agree that XMPP had (and continues to have) a bunch of problems, in no small aprt related to the XEP compatibility matrix insanity — which to be fair they are now finally trying to reign in.
And I am not saying GTalk leaving "cased problems with the network", which sounds like implying *technical* problems. I am saying XMPP was basically mined for user base and techies' goodwill.
@arcade
Evan Prodromou
•Regardless, we agree that it was not an intentional strategy to join the network, create incompatible non-standard extensions, and use that advantage to take over the network.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•I do not need to assume intentional pre-planned malice on Meta's part to be very seriously concerned about P92.
Fedi is tiny compared to Meta. Power differential is immense. Incentives are completely different. There's a lot to be concerned about.
And saying "the fediverse is taking over big companies" just brushes that aside.
Jeff Moe
•Hey, to be clear, they didn't "support and open standard for a while and then drop it."
They did the full EEE.
One day Jabber/XMPP people were able to talk to people on google, then one day they turned it off with new features.
THEY DID NOT SUPPORT THE OPEN STANDARD. THEY TOOK IT PROPRIETARY.
You have a wide audience, please don't spread disinformation about Google.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•Either way, XMPP was far worse-off after that, in ways I do not believe it would be if Google never touched it.
And if we are not careful, same might happen with fedi and P92.
@arcade
Evan Prodromou
•Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•Jeff Moe
•One of the reasons google's chat had any momentum was because it worked with jabber. That's why it was used. Otherwise they would have no one on the network.
Since geeks saw it was "open" and compatible with what they were using *THEY WERE THE FIRST ADOPT THE NETWORK*.
Evan Prodromou
•"One of the reasons google's chat had any momentum was because it worked with jabber."
Prove it.
Jeff Moe
•With their own protocol from scratch, they would have zero users. By using XMPP, they had an existing network of users. are you denying that?
Space Catitude 🚀
•Evan Prodromou
•Johannes Ernst
•What do we need to do so the wish becomes true? I think it's more than just wait and hope for the best.
n8 Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦
•Fediverse Companies Are Over The Big Taking.
Evan Prodromou
•What value is there to Google to kill RSS?
Why spend years and millions of dollars building and running Reader, just to destroy RSS?
This is a dumb conspiracy theory. You've got the direction of causation reversed.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•the end result was similar. Users got sucked into Google's ecosystem, and an open protocol suffered for it greatly.
The point of all this is that harm doesn't have to be done intentionally, doesn't have to be pre-pondered and pre-planned, to be harm nonetheless.
Was the RSS thing pre-planned? I doubt it. Did it do harm to RSS? Yes. yes it did.
@Azure @arcade
Evan Prodromou
•Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•Jeff Moe
•This is absurd goal post moving. We know:
* XMPP (Jabber) was an open standard.
* Google embraced XMPP.
* Google extended XMPP.
* Google dropped XMPP.
You're expecting now people to have internal docs leaked from google how they went about this?
Just look at what they DID! There's obviously some meetings behind that even if @rysiek doesn't have their memos to post.
Evan Prodromou
•You barged into a thread about whether embrace, extend and extinguish ever worked. I said it didn't, and you gave a bunch of examples that weren't EEE.
When I said you should check the actual topic of conversation, you said you were well aware of the definition, which you clearly weren't!
phryk 🏴
•Capitalism has unabatedly invaded and monetized every facet of life it could for longer than I can remember…
To take an example from just yesterday: Docker.
But also GitHub with its Pilot AI.
The FOSS space is getting progressively more monetized, which is a feedback loop giving more power to those with more money. This is not a good development.
Evan Prodromou
•Good luck on your journey!
phryk 🏴
•I have been active in the space for at least 20 years. The arguments of the pro-corporate positions here aren't new to me.
I have also noted a strong trend of people with these positions being well-off financially.
I would posit you're lacking insight into the lives of people who aren't that privileged and how technology affects them directly and indirectly.
J👀
•Perhaps because it was not in the best interest of Google for #RSS to succeed? At the end of the day RSS does not work well for ads or #tracking, as opposed to proprietary content feeds.