I've been through 3 Media houses in Sweden, they won't, as it isn't in their interest in communicating with people oför subscribers in that way. Newspapers are megaphones, one-way, monologue, they want feedback that fits their political compass.
I want them to do that, have their own instances.. but most won't.
I'm a qualified yes. If an organisation wants to have people speaking on their behalf then it would make sense for them to manage the server from which they are speaking.
The question then is: do journalists speak on behalf of their newspapers?
I'm strong yes, but one person pointed out that they want to be able to post from an account their employer does not control, for various reasons. Maybe they keep separate personal and professional accounts, and when they change employers they can migrate to their new employer's instance to take their followers with them?
@jamesmarshall Strong point. I'm qualified yes. The Washington Post story confirms it's easier/cheaper for them to verify than host. And, with the journalists that I value most, it's not about who they work for. (My favourite regional journalist moved jobs smoothly to the national/international FT last year. Her account was pretty certainly under her own control.) So, great for news orgs to run instances, especially with a union agreement. Otherwise, just welcome verified journalists!
@Tony_Meredith @jamesmarshall I like that point, the tying hosting to employment is somewhat concerning. Would prefer the verification option, as it gives journalists greater control over their own content.
@adammiller is the reporter responsible for the server costs of distribution? Labour costs of moderation? Or do they offload that responsibility onto the hapless instance operator who unknowingly let a NYT reporter onto their instance?
@adammiller what about workplace conditions? Isn't the publication responsible for maintaining a safe environment for their employees? If the reporter is on the clock, the company should be providing the tools they need.
True, at least from a contract/copyright perspective. But in a more equal partnership between publisher and journalist, there's a mutual benefit for the parties to work together in this sort of thing.
Looking at one of the major news and media markets being unable of providing healthcare for it's citizens, I'm less inclined to have things left to companies to provide.
Plus, there are a lot of reporters who will not be staff, but rather freelancers or other contracted workers.
So should things be that simple? Sure. But in reality, things need to balance out more to an equal partnership rather than purely everything provided by a "trustworthy" employer.
I think more it's a middle ground. I'd rather see large, journalist-focused organizations hosting things, or someone providing that sort of turnkey service for journalists to have a "self-hosted" instance.
@adammiller Ok. Costs are the strongest point IMO. Everyone needs to be aware of costs, who can/ought to pay (definitely not the 3rd party instance!) and find a mutual answer. Some smaller instances with enough energy (maybe like journa.host) should be able to work it out. I really don't want to lock good journos in walled gardens owned by employers. And I value that good journos can post about stuff in their lives* outside work - that helps us recognise their integrity and character. [
I vote yes but there are questions that need to be addressed regarding whether it serves just staff or open communities and standards on portability for journalists.
Newspapers hosting their own instances would give the orgs better moderation tools for protecting journalists, which would be a big plus.
When people talk about this though, they wildly overestimate the tech literacy of news orgs. Not to mention the willingness to put money into creating something they get mostly for free on big tech platforms, which are also where their audiences are.
Nobody joins a social network because of journalists. Journalists follow their audience.
if an organization has a website, it should have an instance. in the 90s, going around convincing everybody to pay you to create and run a website was a thing, right? maybe we need that again.
Qualified no. I feel like lots of small servers managed by non-technical orgs would lead to a lot of suboptimal experiences. If possible, I'm in favor of press associations or PBS picking up the job by creating exclusive instances for verified journalists.
If journalists post from personal accounts, are they "Press?" Certainly, they would be Press if using their employer's instance. Adding press protections to the speech of one's employees sounds like a good thing to do.
I said qualified yes because it could be a serious moderation burden. I know some news sources have been forced to close comments on their websites because they could not handle the moderation burden and sheer nastiness of the Internet.
So long as they can swing the moderation resources (or if the Fediverse gets better at distributing the burden), I think they should, but smaller papers may struggle initially, insofar as there are any small papers left.
QY: Yeah, for the same reasons as them printing their own papers, hosting their own websites, etc. With the qualification that journalists should also get their own instances independently of outlets. Reasonable to have those hosted by unions, e.g. the NUJ, and / or maybe one global one hosted by the IFJ?
Oh, cheers! I guess I've had this one on the brain lately as I've also been fancying an instance for actors (and crew) hosted by Equity. I mean, besides George Takei and Jeri Ryan, where are all our actors?! 🎭
I've been trying to organize a session for #Fediforum where journalists, or their strategists, can discuss the pros and cons and challenges and opportunities for this. Not sure it will come together, but an unconference would be a great forum for this kind of discussion, and it needs to be had. Too many news orgs are sitting on the fence, unsure what to do.
Looking forward to having you at #Fediforum! Can I talk you into running at least one session? I for one would really love to hear the *technical* history of these protocols like #ostatus and #activitystreams and #activitypub etc, and why some things were abandoned, changed, and in hindsight, whether you think they ended up in the right place. You know this better than anybody I think!
I'm a qualified yes. It comes down to the size of the paper. My local paper has two full-time journalists and the occasional intern or two. They struggle to keep their plugin-laden WordPress website (that looks like it's from 2010) online. They don't need the distraction of managing an instance.
But certainly most papers of any size should be able to manage it.
@atomicpoet I don’t disagree, but folks are getting criticized for using Amazon, Google, Cloudflare for hosting. It is beyond most organizations’ abilities to match their availability and performance for the cost. Combining an imperative to provide fediverse service and self-host is a incredible distraction from the mission of any non-profit that isn’t massive.
I wouldn't mind them being on instances that cater to this type of usage but I feel it's Weird to have them on instances that are intended for private usage
I voted strong yes because I don’t like the idea of Daily Kos or Info Wars so-called “journalists” being on the same generic “all the journalists” server as real journalists, using it for “but I’m a journalist” cover.
<disclaimer>earning my (small) money with it</disclaimer> Apart from this my answer “Strong Yes” was avoiding the pitfalls when they discovered the Internet. It is not a sheet of paper in the screen where you print your texts on. Also photos and other media work completely different. If they want to use it to “spread” stories, TikTok is a better was. If they do use it to tinker new forms of journalisms and create formats with and space for their readers: “Strong Yes!”.
There would have been a superfat thing already in Germany if only RTL Trash TV wouldn't have des... show more
<disclaimer>earning my (small) money with it</disclaimer> Apart from this my answer “Strong Yes” was avoiding the pitfalls when they discovered the Internet. It is not a sheet of paper in the screen where you print your texts on. Also photos and other media work completely different. If they want to use it to “spread” stories, TikTok is a better was. If they do use it to tinker new forms of journalisms and create formats with and space for their readers: “Strong Yes!”.
There would have been a superfat thing already in Germany if only RTL Trash TV wouldn't have destroyed it, they bought all the newspapers here and vandalized my home recently 🙁
“Romance is gone. It was destroyed bit by bit by RTL.” based on Lisa Simpson
I like the way @TexasObserver does it. They run their own server and use the main account to boost stories and posts of their journalists who may or may not be on their server.
So, I am pleased to see that 10 to 1, people want newspapers to set up their own instances.
I am a strong yes. I agree with @atomicpoet ; I think most companies should have fediverse instances.
There is a point a lot of people made. If the newspaper has user accounts for journalists, they should be able to transfer their social graph (followers, following) to another account when they leave the paper.
That seems like a good practice for any staff account.
@atomicpoet Yes, that point was why I was reluctant to vote strong yes. Papers are going to have an incentive to use control over social media accounts as a way of increasing their power over employees.
When I leave, they'll have all my email messages, and any new messages to my address will either bounce or get forwarded to someone inside the company.
For relationships that I don't want to work that way, I use my personal email address.
@atomicpoet Social media for journalists is different, though, because it includes their social graph, which is not necessarily transferable. And the general norm in many cases now is that journalists are expected to bring their social graphs with them when employed and take them when they leave.
A small cross-disciplinary team of engineers worked together to add a feature so journalists at The Washington Post could link their Mastodon profiles from The Post’s website and verify themselves on…
@ben I can appreciate where journalists having their own personal brand could be the way to go, and maybe someday when hosting your own fediverse node involves pulling a lever and entering some text in a few fields that will be practical, but today I have to wonder whether or not most journalists would thank us for saddling them with this task 😀
(As a technologist I feel Mastodon and it’s clones (Hometown, Glitch-soc) are too heavyweight and would feel awkward recommending those to a bunch of organizations, but don’t know enough about Akkoma, Misskey, GoToSocial to recommend those either, so would be most excited to learn from you.)
got it, makes sense! I do see the value of going with the project with the most resources and most online support. I gently wondered if maybe the governance or compatibility issues with Mastodon might have made you think about something else but I’m glad to see that it’s the obvious choice. Thank you 🙇!
Consider who owns newspapers, and also consider broken promises made by Murdoch and Bezos: several people in the conversation remarked that details of who owns and uses the "Journalist" instance need to be worked out. Oh yes negotiation will be needed. Corporate ownership will not be acceptable for real journalists, like Wiiliam Arkin, or Brian Krebs. @briankrebs
This may be more pedantic than most of your responders, but the question was "should" they, to which my answer was "no, I don't believe it's a moral obligation."
I would LIKE them to. And I think it would BETTER for MOST if they did. But I stopped short of declaring it an ethical mandate.
The more I re-read the above, the more I think it's probably a fine semantic line few people draw, but I stand by it... for now.
interestingly, in that particular context, the fact that content does not migrate with the account makes a lot of sense: content created while working for Newspaper A often is "owned" by that newspaper's publisher, not the journalist. 🤔
Yeah, that's a case where it's *good* to keep the post on the old host.
If the reporter is tooting from the reporter's name then we should let them move out with an account-forward I guess.
But if I were a publisher my staff accounts would be more like politics_editor@publication and newsdesk@publication.
Reporters should probably have their named accounts outside the institution really, independently. Only their *job* account should be with the publication, and that should be under the name of the job and expected to be taken over by the next person in that job.
@atomicpoet My qualified yes was that they should first set up profile pages with outbound rel=me links for all their writers, including freelances (they usually have author pages that list their articles already). That way the authors can show their affiliation without having to use the company instance exclusively. That's a much easier first step than running a fedi instance that is likely to gather a lot of subscribers.
@atomicpoet They need both, I can see that. Arguably they need separate news and editorial instances. But they also need to tread carefully as they could both receive and cause thundering herd problems, as well as potentially causing pile-ons.
@atomicpoet I said yes, but don't think the writers they hire should have accounts there.
So I definitely want e.g. The Times to have an instance with different accounts for all their different papers, periodicals, sections, blogs, podcasts, categories, etc.
But, e.g. Jane Blogs who writes for The Sunday Times... It doesn't make sense to me that she'd tie her fediverse activity to her employer.
@atomicpoet Your finding is exactly my message in the book I published (in Norwegiean) some 13 years ago. It is a pitty, shame etc. that newspapers went for opening shop in Facebook rather than bankroll this thing themselves. https://www.scamclip.com/youblee/
In Germany, the government's independent agency for data protection and Internet security (BfDI) set up Mastodon instance and invited government agencies and departments to join. A lot have now joined and are actively using Mastodon
The interesting thing is that it is voluntary and not by government decree
it's fine as a first step, but eventually they need to step up and take responsibility for the server costs of distribution and labour costs of moderation. Offloading those to volunteer instance owners, or the journalists themselves, is irresponsible.
I think it suffices to require (*) newspapers to verify their journalists (publish the <a ref="me >... links). Journalists then just set up shop wherever they want to (seeings as there will probably be firms out there that are better at running mastodon instances than newspapers are).
(*) basically this needs to be part of the standard contract if it isn't already, i.e., that your employer is obligated to authenticate you if your job includes having some kind of social media presence
Christop3her
•I want them to do that, have their own instances.. but most won't.
Paul
•The question then is: do journalists speak on behalf of their newspapers?
James M.
•Tony Meredith
•The Washington Post story confirms it's easier/cheaper for them to verify than host. And, with the journalists that I value most, it's not about who they work for. (My favourite regional journalist moved jobs smoothly to the national/international FT last year. Her account was pretty certainly under her own control.)
So, great for news orgs to run instances, especially with a union agreement. Otherwise, just welcome verified journalists!
Adam Miller
•I like that point, the tying hosting to employment is somewhat concerning. Would prefer the verification option, as it gives journalists greater control over their own content.
Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Adam Miller
•Adam Miller
•Plus, there are a lot of reporters who will not be staff, but rather freelancers or other contracted workers.
So should things be that simple? Sure. But in reality, things need to balance out more to an equal partnership rather than purely everything provided by a "trustworthy" employer.
Adam Miller
•Tony Meredith
•Some smaller instances with enough energy (maybe like journa.host) should be able to work it out.
I really don't want to lock good journos in walled gardens owned by employers. And I value that good journos can post about stuff in their lives* outside work - that helps us recognise their integrity and character.
[
Stephen Michael Kellat
•Jeff Jarvis
•OpenDNA⚙️
•Alex Johnson
•When people talk about this though, they wildly overestimate the tech literacy of news orgs. Not to mention the willingness to put money into creating something they get mostly for free on big tech platforms, which are also where their audiences are.
Nobody joins a social network because of journalists. Journalists follow their audience.
william.maggos
•jaschop
•Håkon Alstadheim
•Caio C. G. Oliveira
•Bob Wyman
•Evan Rodgers 🏳️🌈
•Myk
•Evan Rodgers 🏳️🌈
•Evan Prodromou
•Maybe you should just unfollow me anyway.
We don't know each other, and you don't like what I post.
You should go connect with people you find interesting who make your life better. It's a big Fediverse.
Evan Rodgers 🏳️🌈
•Evan Prodromou
•Nelson Chu Pavlosky
•So long as they can swing the moderation resources (or if the Fediverse gets better at distributing the burden), I think they should, but smaller papers may struggle initially, insofar as there are any small papers left.
Matt Mascarenhas
•Evan Prodromou
•Matt Mascarenhas
•John Francis
•Otherwise, fediblock their asses.
Johannes Ernst
•Evan Prodromou reshared this.
Evan Prodromou
•I'm really looking forward to the event.
Johannes Ernst
•Samuel Johnson
•But certainly most papers of any size should be able to manage it.
Evan Prodromou
•Samuel Johnson
•Chris Trottier
•Jim Parsons
•Let me go further further:
Every #FAMILY should have their own #Fediverse instance.
Gabriel Bauman
•I mean ActivityPub is basically a subset of SMTP and IMAP built on HTTP and JSON already, so…
Evan Prodromou
•Gabriel Bauman
•: j@fabrica:~/src; :t_blink:
•Combining an imperative to provide fediverse service and self-host is a incredible distraction from the mission of any non-profit that isn’t massive.
Evan Prodromou
•Toby Inkster :verified:
•Evan Prodromou
•skze :nonbinary_flag:
•hybrid havoc
•Khader Syed 🫶🦋
•Runyan50
•maco
•n8 Doesn't follow you 🇺🇦
•Kingsley Uyi Idehen
•#News #Journalism #Fediverse
Sebastian Lasse
•Apart from this my answer “Strong Yes” was avoiding the pitfalls when they discovered the Internet.
It is not a sheet of paper in the screen where you print your texts on. Also photos and other media work completely different.
If they want to use it to “spread” stories, TikTok is a better was.
If they do use it to tinker new forms of journalisms and create formats with and space for their readers: “Strong Yes!”.
I was also maybe the first who told the Public Broadcasters (even more important) about the Fediverse, e.g. in 2015 or at Campfire in 2017.
10 years later it pays off. Small projects begin and bigger are on the horizon https://www.publicmediaalliance.org/public-broadcasters-create-public-spaces-incubator/
There would have been a superfat thing already in Germany if only RTL Trash TV wouldn't have des... show more
Apart from this my answer “Strong Yes” was avoiding the pitfalls when they discovered the Internet.
It is not a sheet of paper in the screen where you print your texts on. Also photos and other media work completely different.
If they want to use it to “spread” stories, TikTok is a better was.
If they do use it to tinker new forms of journalisms and create formats with and space for their readers: “Strong Yes!”.
I was also maybe the first who told the Public Broadcasters (even more important) about the Fediverse, e.g. in 2015 or at Campfire in 2017.
10 years later it pays off. Small projects begin and bigger are on the horizon https://www.publicmediaalliance.org/public-broadcasters-create-public-spaces-incubator/
There would have been a superfat thing already in Germany if only RTL Trash TV wouldn't have destroyed it, they bought all the newspapers here and vandalized my home recently 🙁
“Romance is gone. It was destroyed bit by bit by RTL.”
based on Lisa Simpson
Public broadcasters create "Public Spaces Incubator" - Public Media Alliance
Harry Lock (Public Media Alliance)csh
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•I am a strong yes. I agree with @atomicpoet ; I think most companies should have fediverse instances.
There is a point a lot of people made. If the newspaper has user accounts for journalists, they should be able to transfer their social graph (followers, following) to another account when they leave the paper.
That seems like a good practice for any staff account.
Nathan Schneider
•Evan Prodromou
•When I leave, they'll have all my email messages, and any new messages to my address will either bounce or get forwarded to someone inside the company.
For relationships that I don't want to work that way, I use my personal email address.
I think most work email works this way.
Nathan Schneider
•Evan Prodromou
•Nathan Schneider
•Texas Observer
•Evan Prodromou
•Texas Observer
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Also, thanks to @ben for making me think about this topic! We disagree on our conclusions but I appreciate the prompt.
https://mastodon.adida.net/@ben/109978387991698145
Ben Adida
2023-03-06 21:10:23
Feoh
•22
•(As a technologist I feel Mastodon and it’s clones (Hometown, Glitch-soc) are too heavyweight and would feel awkward recommending those to a bunch of organizations, but don’t know enough about Akkoma, Misskey, GoToSocial to recommend those either, so would be most excited to learn from you.)
Evan Prodromou
•22
•indyradio
•Evan Prodromou
•I do think that those negotiations have to happen regardless of whether journalists toot from personal accounts or company accounts.
And I don't think the solution to the problem is not having newspaper instances at all.
penryu
•I would LIKE them to. And I think it would BETTER for MOST if they did. But I stopped short of declaring it an ethical mandate.
The more I re-read the above, the more I think it's probably a fine semantic line few people draw, but I stand by it... for now.
Michał "rysiek" Woźniak · 🇺🇦
•@atomicpoet
Evan Prodromou
•Adam Dalliance
•Yeah, that's a case where it's *good* to keep the post on the old host.
If the reporter is tooting from the reporter's name then we should let them move out with an account-forward I guess.
But if I were a publisher my staff accounts would be more like politics_editor@publication and newsdesk@publication.
Reporters should probably have their named accounts outside the institution really, independently. Only their *job* account should be with the publication, and that should be under the name of the job and expected to be taken over by the next person in that job.
Kevin Marks
•That's a much easier first step than running a fedi instance that is likely to gather a lot of subscribers.
Evan Prodromou
•Kevin Marks
•Basil
•So I definitely want e.g. The Times to have an instance with different accounts for all their different papers, periodicals, sections, blogs, podcasts, categories, etc.
But, e.g. Jane Blogs who writes for The Sunday Times... It doesn't make sense to me that she'd tie her fediverse activity to her employer.
Fuck Elon :mastodon:
•I guess they could even keep the old user "alive" but locked, for legacy posts?
Per Helge Berrefjord
•youblee | SCAMCLIP.com
www.scamclip.comPhil L.
•On a related note:
In Germany, the government's independent agency for data protection and Internet security (BfDI) set up Mastodon instance and invited government agencies and departments to join. A lot have now joined and are actively using Mastodon
The interesting thing is that it is voluntary and not by government decree
heise online
•https://www.heise.de/news/Twitter-Alternative-Mastodon-heise-online-zieht-auf-eigene-Instanz-7465214.html
In eigener Sache: heise online zieht auf eigene Mastodon-Instanz
Martin Holland (heise online)Evan Prodromou
•DaddyR
•DaddyR
•Evan Prodromou
•: j@fabrica:~/src; :t_blink:
•Which, having used yammer, makes me scared of my own conclusions.
Evan Prodromou reshared this.
Roger Crew✅❌☑🗸❎✖✓✔
•(*) basically this needs to be part of the standard contract if it isn't already, i.e., that your employer is obligated to authenticate you if your job includes having some kind of social media presence
v o r
•If the goal is to verify their journalists, strong yes.
If it's a "what the cool kids are doing" move, then strong no.