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Should developers build search engines for the fediverse that reflect current community standards?

#Poll #EvanPoll

  • Strong yes (35%, 133 votes)
  • Qualified yes (37%, 139 votes)
  • Qualified no (12%, 47 votes)
  • Strong no (14%, 55 votes)
374 voters. Poll end: 1 year ago

#poll #EvanPoll

Evan Prodromou reshared this.

Dan Sinker
Dan Sinker  
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seems that "current community standards" are extreme hostility to search
Craig Maloney ☕
Craig Maloney ☕  
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The "reflect current community standards" clause is doing a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence, which is why I went with "qualified yes". Unless it comes with an explicit "opt-in" I think any solution is going to run afoul of the current mindset.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@OkieSpaceQueen I don't think I can.

Are you asking me to define what current community standards for search engines are?

Or how those would be communicated to software developers?

I'd rather not get into that kind of specifics in a poll, sorry. Use your best guess!
@☆⋆Okie Space Queen
Darth Kilroy
Darth Kilroy  
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I miss clicked, I meant to hit Qualified Yes no Strong yes
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@darthkilroy oh shit you ruined the fediverse
@Darth Kilroy
Stephen Kellat
Stephen Kellat  
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The current community standards as to search are not what the average person would expect, though.
Fifi Lamoura
Fifi Lamoura  
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You are tempting fate by putting up a poll on a site that's got a higher percentage of people on the autistic spectrum than average 😂​It's going to constantly result in people going "I can't answer this because it's not specific enough and now my brain is already too far into the complexity of these distinctions to even consider answering it, can you please clarify?"

*I'm judging no one here, just noticing because I too have this problem with questions that are not specific enough
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@fifilamoura I've been in the polling game a while, and I've found that providing any clarification is a quagmire. The fun is in thinking about the question.
@Fifi Lamoura
Fifi Lamoura
Fifi Lamoura  
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I definitely bow to your superior polling experience (I'm pretty sure I've never run a poll!). But I can totally see how getting too specific could also end up in the weeds.
MaZderMind
MaZderMind  
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@astro I would love to have a self-hosted search for either only my own toots & replies or for my personal timeline. Finding my own thread from a couple of months ago to follow up with some new insight is the primary use-case.

In any way I want to know where that data resides and who can access it (just me).
@Astro
Erin Kissane
Erin Kissane  
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Honestly? Without a series of highly structured and really well moderated conversations, I don’t think “community standards” will ever be clear enough to allow search to happen without big defed schisms.

But also an unknowable proportion of the fediverse is deeply committed to resisting not just any possible search, but any increase in legibility so schisms probably gonna schis either way, which is fine.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@kissane yeah, I would be disappointed with that result. I think there is a concept of search on the fediverse that is very humane. It would be great if it became the default for how we think of social search.

If the people who advocate for those constraints retreat to a defed fortress, I think that's a lost opportunity.
@Erin Kissane
Lyle, a walking haunted house
Lyle, a walking haunted house  
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my first pass thought is yes. But I'm interested in the discussion because there are likely perspectives I am not aware of and so haven't considered
ændra
ændra  
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I'm so confused by the question, ngl. I'm staunchly anti-search, so voted "strong no," but the ambiguity of the question means that it could be interpreted as "Search is fine, disregard community values!" or even "Search is fine if it tracks with community values, but I'm strongly against the current community values."
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@aendra you don't sound confused at all! It sounds like you have thought through the question quite a bit.

I'm interested in your response, though. Could you elaborate on your position further?
@ændra
ændra
ændra  
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It depends how you interpret the platform. If you see it as a place for "microblogging," and archivability is important because you want your posts available for posterity, then yeah, searchability will be a priority for you.

I don't. I see it as a way to talk to friends, almost like a big global chat room. I have auto-delete enabled everywhere. I'm trans and assume hostility by default if someone is digging into my previous posts. If I find an infodump I want to reference in the future, I'll bookmark it. Search holds zero benefit for my usecase.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@oivindberg are you asking what those norms are?

Or how the developers would work with the community?

Either way, that's probably too specific for me to get into. Use your best guess!
Steven Rosenberg
Steven Rosenberg  
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I said no because it seems Mastodon users (unsure about other apps) are opposed to search.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@passthejoe so, you think that search that meets community standards is impossible?
@Steven Rosenberg
Steven Rosenberg
Steven Rosenberg  
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From what I've seen, the mood here is anti-search.

I have just seen some posts about how to set it up -- and I personally am in favor -- but I think the loudest people here are OK to stick with hastags exposed to search and nothing else.
f00f/eris/continuum/etc
f00f/eris/continuum/etc  
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the problem is, it seems people want an opt-in search engine, and aren't okay with just using the existing opt-out features. that would require creating some way to opt in, and given that most users won't know the "allow indexing" toggle even exists, it wouldn't be a very good search engine.
Chris Godwin :masto_verify:
Chris Godwin :masto_verify:  
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what if I told you I don't wanna search it. I just wanna bask.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@chris I don't know! The poll isn't about whether you want to search, although that might inform how you answer the question.
@Chris Godwin :masto_verify:
:PUA: Shlee fucked around and
:PUA: Shlee fucked around and  
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Mastodon needs to build a protocol level toot permissions.

Tagging toots with "allow:fulltextsearch" or "disallow:fultextsearch" and then search engines can process those permissions and maintain the tooters wishes on a toot by toot basis.
Nelson Chu Pavlosky
Nelson Chu Pavlosky  
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I said qualified no because I think search could work in the future if someone with a lot of experience on fedi and goodwill was very careful about seeking consent and gathering community feedback, and most of all took it slow, rather than giving off "move fast and break things" vibes.

I think now is just a bad time to release a fedi search engine because there have been a number of poorly received search attempts released one after another, and people are short on patience.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@skyfaller I think that's an unlikely outcome.

More likely is that eventually someone too big to shout down implements search, ignores complaints, and then that becomes the default.

I think if people want to have a fediverse that respects privacy in particular ways, we need to make sure it gets built.

And time is not on our side.
@Nelson Chu Pavlosky
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@MerlinJStar that is a weird way to answer this question!

"Should someone do something" is orthogonal to whether they will or not.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@MerlinJStar but I understand the point.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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This is really interesting! I know I say that a lot, but in this case it's very true. It seems like a lot of people are OK with developers building search engines that meet current community standards.
Bathsheba Blue
Bathsheba Blue  
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You do know that this is in no way a representative sample or valid survey right?
Most normal users probably don’t understand what “according to current standards” (limited) means.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@inklings

My polls are neither binding resolutions nor scientific instruments.

I do polls almost every day, on a lot of topics. I do it because I'm interested in people's thoughts and opinions. I try to write them clearly and succinctly, but that's basically to minimise having to clarify over and over.

"Most people" here means "most people who responded".
@Bathsheba Blue
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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What those community standards are is interesting.

I think at least in part there's a strong commitment to privacy on the fediverse.

In particular, there is an aversion to being aggregated, collated, sorted and classified.

Others engaging with you not based on knowing who you are, or participation in conversation, but because they found you on list somewhere.

The classic example I've seen in discussion here is trolls using search terms to find and harass trans people.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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Another norm is defaults. That is, the default configuration should favour community norms, not the needs of the searcher.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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Another is ephemerality. That the past is the past; we should let things disappear with time.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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There's another one, which might be best characterized as, we said no search, so no fucking search, no matter what, ever.

Like, the voice of the community has spoken, and anyone who tries to reopen the question is being disrespectful of that community.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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Anyways, I'm a qualified yes.

When I originally designed the permission system in ActivityPub, I expected to have activities addressed to the Public be available for typical Web use: reading and linking.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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I also think republication should be based on licensing, like Creative Commons licenses. Not very well supported now on the fediverse, unfortunately.

People seem to forget who have come to the fediverse from Twitter is that those platforms have republication terms built into their terms of use. Not the case here!

We have 30 years of weird precedent in Web search, like Google, that's found an uneasy and dynamic balance that seems to appease all sides.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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Anyway, I think there is a really positive and human-centered concept of search in the fediverse.

I think that we actually have to implement those concepts in order to make them the norm.

If we don't, other ideas of how search will work will be implemented by people who don't, by definition, follow community norms here.

I think it's a lot easier to guide the practices of later entrants if there are working examples of correct behaviour.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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Oh, one last thing!

Search is a powerful counterbalance to centralisation.

Being able to use N many different search engines to find references to a hashtag means you don't have to default to a single supernode's use of that hashtag.
Will 🌹🏴
Will 🌹🏴  
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speaking of decentralization, I think a federated search, where each instance keeps its own index of its own content and the searcher can request results from many instances, could easily address my concerns about search and probably most others concerns, too
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@datatitian if you think that, you should definitely try implementing it.
@Will 🌹🏴
Will 🌹🏴
Will 🌹🏴  
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no man, that's the attitude that's so frustrating about the previous search imolementors. Building something that conforms to community norms requires communication*before* you build.

We should be telling people, "if you think that, then spread the idea around and see what others think. See if you can find a group of people to help guide you"
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@datatitian I'd highly recommend doing some research on federated search before you start.

It's extremely difficult to implement, and even if you do very well, performance is terrible and search results are bad.
@Will 🌹🏴
Hippy Steve
Hippy Steve  
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@datatitian

I’m not very up on the philosophical issues of search here, but I am frustrated by the lack of it because of disaster tracking and response.

The best way to track on unfolding event on twitter was to search its location or similar term early on. Then find trustworthy sources on the ground and open a tab for each of their feeds. Hashtags don’t settle in until a few hours later and by then they are too noisy with OMG type posts instead of real intel
@Will 🌹🏴
Nathan Williams (he/him)
Nathan Williams (he/him)  
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This is such an important point for anything social. It's not enough to have good ideas about how something should work, it's essential to actually share communities where things work more like the way things should. I'm dispositionally more of a theorist than an activist, so this is a reminder I personally very much need.
mconnor
mconnor  
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I think as long as the platform makes it possible to build bad tools, they’re going to get built. I’m still pretty new here, but I think we need to figure out how to evolve the platform so we aren’t dependent on good intentions.
Chris Mahan
Chris Mahan  
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I was thinking about this today, about how this chatgpt is really a quest for better search in the absence of the availability of thoughtful experts.
Shoq
Shoq  
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I missed the context, but by republication, do you mean the reuse of anyone's posted content? I've seen that discussed, and would assume such protected content would be indicated as such with some sort of Fedi-copyright notice, so to speak?
Charles Roper
Charles Roper  
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It is naive to assume that issues like this are what make the Fediverse so beneficial? If we don't like a policy, we can move to an instance we do approve of. That choice is meaningful. Or is the issue more technical? I.e., can instances not prevent others from scaping? I think I've missed why the topic is so controversial.
Basil
Basil  
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I have this setting enabled and would hope it (or something similar) would be respected by fedi specific search tools. Otherwise I don't have strong thoughts on the matter.
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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This is not an exhaustive nor a very detailed list of norms, by the way.
Bathsheba Blue
Bathsheba Blue  
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Those expressing this sentiment should set up private chat rooms — and not participate in a SOCIAL media platform.
James M.
James M.  
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I've only seen references to the search debate; I haven't read it myself, though I realize there are major concerns with it such as severe harassment, etc.

Can someone tell me in a nutshell what the problem is with a private search on one's own device of everything one has seen, not visible to anyone else? That seems like merely a useful memory enhancement to me. What am I missing? Would it enable harassment or make it easier?

Links to a relevant discussion are most welcome. Thanks! 😊
Tathar is dragons! ΘΔ
Tathar is dragons! ΘΔ  
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I find that this part is my biggest gripe with fedi. My local instance doesn't support any form of search, even for my own stuff, so I end up having to rely on general search engines to find my own old posts. Likewise, the most profound, enlightening posts are hard to preserve in spite of their value.

I suspect that there isn't any way to make search a uniform feature for everyone. At minimum, people need options for who can search them, and for how far back.
Phillip Hallam-Baker
Phillip Hallam-Baker  
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We should insist on people stating requirements as requirements, not as their notion of a solution.

I am at Arisia and have had conversations with some Trans folk about various issues. One recurring issue is people who are not trans using the imputed needs of the trans community as justification for whatever their pet thing is.

The notion of making any public space a safe space for any group is a bad plan. You can try to make spaces as safe as possible, but what we have in the US and some other countries right now is a full on fascist bigot fest and this time they have decided that it is Trans folk at the top of their target list.

Restricting search is security through obscurity, it will fail because it is a weak control. We need strong controls and that means cryptography.
Tony Hoyle
Tony Hoyle  
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That's the rub though.. I doubt any kind of search engine could do so as it's not one community, it's many interacting ones.. it's like he QT debate on steriods.
Fifi Lamoura
Fifi Lamoura  
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Now I'm curious about who responded to your poll and how that influenced results!
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@oivindberg regardless, now that the poll is closed, I wrote up my thoughts here:

https://prodromou.pub/@evan/109694462607729545
debs
debs  
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I was just discussing this in separate conversations with @fraying and Kevin marks in the broader context of now os a good tome@think of the social consequences of features - so I’m also a qualified yes - if admins/devs spend equal time on the non features - ie the hard work of nurturing community with humans and social skills [which I know you get]
@Derek Powazek 🐐
Evan Prodromou
Evan Prodromou  
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@Seirdy so, that's the current community standard?
@Seirdy
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