So, in my humble opinion, if the Gov(s) are printing money as there is no tomorrow and giving it for free to banks and big companies, why not also give it "for free" to the general population. A recent experiment showed that UBI actually increased the economy because people use money to buy food and basic needs, so yeah... quite a no-brainer.
@trwnh in a post scarcity economy you could have a UBI that is so generous that it appears to eradicate money. This, for example, could be the Star Trek model. The average person can have pretty much whatever they like, up to the point where they start asking for things like starships.
It's an interesting topic worthy of discussion and consideration, IMO, however (this surprised me when I first learned of it — but makes sense upon further consideration) some of those who support it have less-than-upstanding (for lack of a better word) intentions. That is, rather than seeing its social welfare benefits, they support it as a means of countering social mobility and believe it will assure their class/economic superiority. Ouch!
I'm a proponent of a high value UBI. Basically pension level. Abolish all other types Student Allowance/Job Seeker etc etc and provide some additional targeted assistance for i.e disability etc when required. Admin savings alone would be massive
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If not, we should assure that there is a #housing and #Food justice, alongside if possible #electricity justice where atleast every community has access to a basic standard of them.
i want a ubi that isn't a substitute for social services, that gives you enough so work is optional and truly volitional and doesn't rely on the state or capitalism.
Easiest, if not the only way to maintain compatibility between democracy and capitalism (or at least something like it) in the 21st century. Without it, we have to give up on one or the other.
I still prefer a "national dividend" structure. But that could be considered a form of UBI. Or co-exist with it.
Not sure the economic impact of such a thing. Will it cause inflation to the point that it hurts those who are at it or those resting slightly above. I'm not sure.
We need a Maximum Basic Income. I think it would necessarily lead to an improvement in worker income. But I could be naive.
There is a time in the near future where five disciplines will converge to cause a severe lapse in the ability for government to care for those in need.
As robotics, artificial intelligence, nanotech, quantum computing and energy harnessment advance, there will be a time when they converge and machinery will develop that has the ability to replace humans in the workforce.
This has been happening for decades. We’ve seen robotics assist on assembly lines and has continued as we now routinely see kiosks that take orders in restaurants. As a result corporations are able to bypass the expenses that come with having employees the most important of these being payroll taxes… social security and medicare.
There has to be policy created that forces employers and anyone who deploys robotics that displace workers to continue to pay payroll taxes for those displaced.
In doing so, the government could fund a UBI for employees who are displaced by up and coming technology.
The only thing that makes me a qualified yes rather than a strong yes is there exist UBI plans which consist of taking the pot of public benefits (healthcare, disability, unemployment, pension, schooling) & converting the costs of those programs directly to UBI with no increase or potentially a decrease in the total amount of money spent. If UBI *replaces* conventional gov benefits rather than *augmenting* them the amount of overall benefit to members of the public could be afterward less.
if we lived in a world where average GDP could give everyone a comfortable life, sure. But right now our option is only very threadbare UBI to not disincentivize work too much, at the cost of other government programs.
Probably true also even in a US-only case, but for an aspirational program like UBI we need to be thinking worldwide, morally
In a world where our access to cash becomes more precarious by the day, Mary-Dan Johnston says we should demand more than the further monetization of our lives and relationships.
It seems to me that effort would be better spent on meeting basic needs before anything like UBI is considered. Expanding social programs can reduce their per capita costs, while UBI may do the opposite. Also, UBI is no guarantee for children.
qualified, contingent on how #UBI is paid for. Strong yes if exclusively paid for through taxes on property (preferably land, plus intellectual, if IP is not killed) and pollution (primarily carbon emissions, but also various bads such as ads). Strong no if paid for through taxes on human labor.
IMHO: UBL would be the best thing that ever happened to capitalism. The freedom to innovate would be unprecidented and new markets would bloom everywhere. Of course it won't happen though, because we practice corpratism not market driven capitalism.
Wow, this is a very popular poll! Lots of responses.
I think what the comments show is that there are a lot of ideas and designs for how UBI could work.
I think the poll response shows that a lot of people want it to work.
I'm a qualified yes. I think all people have a right to the basics: food, shelter, education, and so on. UBI could do that. If UBI became a substitute for providing these to people, I'd be opposed.
I answered strong yes because I think it’s a good idea and I didn’t want to put any qualifiers on it but I’m thinking now maybe I should have been a qualified yes because I think if our systems were better at taking care of people we may not need it.
I don't agree with your premise. I find work exhausting. I'd be happy to stay home all day and program Open Source software, tend my garden, write, walk, do projects with my kids.
Andres Jalinton
•A recent experiment showed that UBI actually increased the economy because people use money to buy food and basic needs, so yeah... quite a no-brainer.
infinite love ⴳ
•Evan Prodromou
•Brindy :verifiedbynurgle:
•Rich Stein (he/him)
•Joel Wirāmu, Pauling
•I'm a proponent of a high value UBI. Basically pension level. Abolish all other types Student Allowance/Job Seeker etc etc and provide some additional targeted assistance for i.e disability etc when required. Admin savings alone would be massive
Andrzej
•Les capsules du prof Lutz
•Universal Basic Income vs. Le Salaire à Vie
YouTubeMETADESTROYER !! (He/Him)
•Spark Purcell (they/them)
•Space Catitude 🚀
•I still prefer a "national dividend" structure. But that could be considered a form of UBI. Or co-exist with it.
Grrsly Adams Family Vacation
•We need a Maximum Basic Income. I think it would necessarily lead to an improvement in worker income. But I could be naive.
Wrenasaurus :bc: :heart_trans:
•As robotics, artificial intelligence, nanotech, quantum computing and energy harnessment advance, there will be a time when they converge and machinery will develop that has the ability to replace humans in the workforce.
This has been happening for decades. We’ve seen robotics assist on assembly lines and has continued as we now routinely see kiosks that take orders in restaurants. As a result corporations are able to bypass the expenses that come with having employees the most important of these being payroll taxes… social security and medicare.
There has to be policy created that forces employers and anyone who deploys robotics that displace workers to continue to pay payroll taxes for those displaced.
In doing so, the government could fund a UBI for employees who are displaced by up and coming technology.
Evan Prodromou
•aroom
•Philip Moscovitch
•Dan Jones
•Eventually, I think there shouldn't be a need for a UBI because all basic needs should just be met at no cost.
Need a house? You get one for free that is big enough to meet your needs. And it's your house, not a government-owned house that you can stay in.
Have a kid or get married? Trade in your house for a bigger one.
You live in a city and need to travel? You've got well built and completely free buses, light rail, etc.
You live outside a city and need to travel? You get a free car that is basic and meets your needs.
Hungry? Go to the government grocery and get some. No checkouts. Just bag them up and take them home.
You want something beyond your basic needs, like a vacation home, or a fancier car, or a boat? That's on you. You have to pay for that.
Any developed country could provide this with appropriate taxation on the wealthiest.
But until then, a UBI could get us closer.
@evan@prodromou.pub
mcc
•stephen judkins
•Probably true also even in a US-only case, but for an aspirational program like UBI we need to be thinking worldwide, morally
Darwin Woodka
•Philip Moscovitch
•Bread and Roses: Beyond a Basic Income
GUTSDmitry Borodaenko
•Twin Review: Universal Basic Income from 1938 to 2018 - Circle of Light
circle.ltCappiello
•*From a U.S. perspective.
Steffen Voß
•mlinksva
•Mike
•I wonder what the same survey would look like if given to the general US population.
knottyman
•Dan
•Charles Johnson
•So it will probably never happen.
Mike McCue
•Evan Prodromou
•https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_basic_income
sociopolitical financial transfer proposal
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Mike McCue
•Evan Prodromou
•Mike Fraser :Jets:
•Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mincome
IMHO: UBL would be the best thing that ever happened to capitalism. The freedom to innovate would be unprecidented and new markets would bloom everywhere. Of course it won't happen though, because we practice corpratism not market driven capitalism.
social experiment in Canada
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Evan Prodromou
•I think what the comments show is that there are a lot of ideas and designs for how UBI could work.
I think the poll response shows that a lot of people want it to work.
I'm a qualified yes. I think all people have a right to the basics: food, shelter, education, and so on. UBI could do that. If UBI became a substitute for providing these to people, I'd be opposed.
Thanks everyone for responses!
Brindy :verifiedbynurgle:
•Isn’t that the intent of UBI, to provide the basics? Then some folk will need more (eg disabled), it should not replace that.
Evan Prodromou
•Brindy :verifiedbynurgle:
•:heart_pan: jo
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Tomi the Slav and 1024 others
•Colin Macleod
•Chris Gilmour
•In the UK it would be around £2 per day, £14 per week, in the US it would be $1.70 per day, $12 per week.
This would offset against a modest rise in income tax for people earning above the median income.
For most people that UBI is insignificant, but for many it would be nice.
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