The section on North America seems to include visiting gravesites and memorials, in which case my "strong no" vote was an inaccurate response. However, I don't see pausing to reflect or keeping a photo of someone who is gone in the same category as keeping an altar, making offerings, or ritualized exhumation and reburial of a body. Maybe I should; it's not something I've given much thought to before now.
@splicer yeah, I think there's a real spectrum. Also in North American secular culture, we have other practices like: memorials and statues; named holidays; use of surnames or family names; naming children after family members; "what the founders intended"; family recipes; family traditions; genealogy; inheritance laws; historical reënactment.
I think drawing a clear line between these and other practices elsewhere might be hard.
Strong no. No disrespect to gramps, however. I would never have learned to cast my own fishing sinkers without him. (I never picked up fishing itself, however. I dislike killing critters if I'm not eating them.)
@shoq how can you be a Strong No if you not only are grateful to your grandfather but also believe that he deserves respect? That has to be at least a Qualified No.
I guess I was thinking I just don't go in for optimal veneration, but that doesn't mean I can't slip the guy some props for the useless skills he passed on. He meant well 😀
I see I'm dominating your poll by being the first to answer lol I think it's important and interesting to know who the people we came from are (if we can) but as as an Australian settler with some very strong WASP ancestry, including an ancestor who wrote a letter home to Australia in the 1800s tut tutting the French revolution and what the communards had done to Paris upon visiting Paris while at medical school in Edinburgh, I'd say I appreciate and find knowing my ancestors interesting and informative, I don't venerate them.
I think it's more important to think about how we treat our elders who are still alive and, in that sense, I think ancestor appreciation (and/or veneration) serves an important cultural purpose of linking us into a chain of existence rather than thinking of ourselves as individuals purely of our own making. We can know and appreciate our ancestors, for better and worse, without actually venerating them. Ancestor veneration can also easily become a form of cultural supremacy as well, particularly if it's about creating false images of our ancestors.
I don't, but been living in West Africa (Benin) for quite some time, where Vaudoun is part of everyday life. When someone old dies, the tradition in some cases is to burry them in their room or house, where the family lives.
I personally don't, but my mom is from Hong Kong and her family is/was Taoist, so they have a number of ancestor veneration practices that I have no problem participating in, making me a "qualified no".
"Strong no" to me implies "my ancestors suck" or "veneration sucks", as some other respondents have indicated, and that's not how I feel about it.
@rhetoricked potentially, yes. But there's a specific connotation when talking about human beliefs, social causes, and practices that makes the second one the clear choice.
It seems to me that folks are answering (at least in the comments) questions 2 and 3 (with a couple answering 1). I think all the questions are interesting, and I'm curious what prompted you to post the poll
@Evan Prodromou I don't practice it, not coming from such a culture. I can see why it would be beneficial for a family's cohesion and continuity, and by extension the cohesion and continuity of a whole society, to celebrate who came before and honoring their memory.
At 3-4 generations back I start feeling that simply being my ancestor isn't much of an accomplishment and it would probably be better to venerate people who exemplify good values as we understand them today.
I went with qualified no because I think we should get to choose which (if any) of our ancestors deserve our veneration.
For example, some of my ancestors were horse thieves, and the surname from that part of the family is a pseudonym that helped them evade law enforcement. No veneration there.
But some of my other ancestors did amazing things in their lives, like fighting Nazis, researching infectious diseases, and building schools in Africa. Definitely veneration-worthy.
Venerating people simply because they managed to achieve the very common feat of procreation is clearly wrong. Nonetheless, I think it very useful learn from studying one's own genealogy so that you can understand, in a deeply personal way, that the saints gave birth to sinners whose unremarkable children spawned remarkable offspring, and so on...
By "genealogy," I don't mean a simple cataloging of successful sex. I mean gathering, and learning from, the stories of each generation.
I'm slightly confused : are you asking whether we believe that ancestor veneration exists in some culture somewhere, or whether it "works" for some interpretation of "works"?
@mds2 I'd say in this case "believe in" is less about acknowledging the existence of the practice, but whether you endorse it or practice it in some way.
I voted Strong Yes even though I don't personally care for it. However, I come from an East African nation whose culture is deeply rooted in ancestor veneration, and keeps track of their lineage meticulously.
My guess is that a lot of it is the loaded anthropological term I used.
The answers may have been different if I'd asked if people had respect for their heritage, remembered their deceased family members with fondness, or used other phrases more in line with contemporary Western practice.
Or maybe not! I might try different wording in the future.
@splicer mentioned graves, funerals, photos in the home and memorials.
I also listed statues; named holidays; use of surnames or family names; naming children after family members; "what the founders intended"; family recipes; family traditions; genealogy; inheritance laws; historical reënactment.
Other possibilities: keepsake items; place names like streets, parks, towns, and states.
I have photos of family members in my house going back 3 generations. We tell stories of those people. I've visited many of their homes, in multiple countries.
I'm named after my grandfather and my son and father are named after my great-grandfather.
I cook heritage foods, grow heritage crops, and celebrate heritage holidays. I try to trace genealogy.
I like to think that the effort and good will of my ancestors helps me and my kids today.
I think it might have to do with what comes up when you google the phrase: belief in ancestors’ spirits continued existence in the present. Very religious reading.
@splicer this tells me that the polls on mastodon aren’t accurate reflections of anything. There’s no way at all that this is reflective of the bell curve in human nature. A reminder that unless a survey is created according to scientific and statistical best practices, the survey is meaningless.
"believe in" is more of a sticking point here for me; i have respect for my extended family and ancestors but i do not consider it religious, which "believe" connotes, esp in concert with "ancestor veneration". like there are a lot of cultures that do specifically *worship* ancestors and that's cool and i kind of assumed that's what you meant with the poll at first
yes, it's a decently big part of the religion i follow (which i will not name because i feel a bit weird about saying what it is right now, sorry) though admittedly one people can avoid if they so desire
"ancestors" in its case aren't even necessarily people you're related to, they can be important people in a field of study one is interested in, it can be your old pet cat your family had to put down when you were 11 years old, and so on and so forth. once i knew someone who followed the same religion who venerated extinct prehistoric animals as their ancestors
veneration too doesn't have to mean bowing down to your ancestors, treating them as infallible, or what have you. it can be many many things, from simply making sure to remember ancestors and the things they did whether positive or negative, to doing work here to try and help someone who kinda sucked in life improve in the afterlife (if you believe in one anyways, i'm not so sure i do personally, this is just an example of some ways of handling ancestor work i've seen from others)
i voted "qualified yes" j... show more
yes, it's a decently big part of the religion i follow (which i will not name because i feel a bit weird about saying what it is right now, sorry) though admittedly one people can avoid if they so desire
"ancestors" in its case aren't even necessarily people you're related to, they can be important people in a field of study one is interested in, it can be your old pet cat your family had to put down when you were 11 years old, and so on and so forth. once i knew someone who followed the same religion who venerated extinct prehistoric animals as their ancestors
veneration too doesn't have to mean bowing down to your ancestors, treating them as infallible, or what have you. it can be many many things, from simply making sure to remember ancestors and the things they did whether positive or negative, to doing work here to try and help someone who kinda sucked in life improve in the afterlife (if you believe in one anyways, i'm not so sure i do personally, this is just an example of some ways of handling ancestor work i've seen from others)
i voted "qualified yes" just because of my probably kinda differing from the mainstream belief in what an "ancestor" even is. i'm not sure i'd personally want to do ancestor veneration in terms of honouring people i'm blood related to, but ancestor veneration that uses my religion's definition of an ancestor is much more up my alley
@otfrom they are! And ancestor discussions are pretty divisive. I'm also angry at a lot of my ancestors for their failures. I think the best response is taking good and thoughtful care of our descendants.
I was a strong yes, but my answer deals directly with genealogy. My parents have vastly different stories; my mom’s people were dirt poor farmers back to the 1600s in North America, my dad the grandson of dirt poor Slovak immigrants. I value my study of my family history tremendously. Many of them were wonderful people. Some were not. I love knowing as much as I can about how I am connected to history through my people.
Evan Prodromou
•cultural practice
Contributors to Wikimedia projects (Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.)Shoq
•Evan Prodromou
•splicer
•Evan Prodromou
•I think drawing a clear line between these and other practices elsewhere might be hard.
Evan Prodromou
•Shoq
•Evan Prodromou
•Shoq
•James M.
•I don't believe the dead are still sentient, if that's what you mean.
Fifi Lamoura
•I think it's more important to think about how we treat our elders who are still alive and, in that sense, I think ancestor appreciation (and/or veneration) serves an important cultural purpose of linking us into a chain of existence rather than thinking of ourselves as individuals purely of our own making. We can know and appreciate our ancestors, for better and worse, without actually venerating them. Ancestor veneration can also easily become a form of cultural supremacy as well, particularly if it's about creating false images of our ancestors.
Potato ENTHUSIAST
•DJM (freelance for hire)
•Nelson Chu Pavlosky
•"Strong no" to me implies "my ancestors suck" or "veneration sucks", as some other respondents have indicated, and that's not how I feel about it.
ricardo :mastodon:
•Evan Prodromou
•ricardo :mastodon:
•Evan Prodromou
•Brian Larson
•Do I believe AW happens? Strong yes
Do I approve of AW practiced by others? Qualified yes
Do I practice AW? Strong no
Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Brian Larson
•Brian Larson
•dynamic
•Joining this conversation after the poll closed it was *not at all* clear to me that the implication was the second meaning listed.
Dr. Quadragon ❌
•Evan Prodromou
•Dr. Quadragon ❌
•Jeff McNeill
•Evan Prodromou
•clacke: exhausted pixie dream boy 🇸🇪🇭🇰💙💛
•At 3-4 generations back I start feeling that simply being my ancestor isn't much of an accomplishment and it would probably be better to venerate people who exemplify good values as we understand them today.
Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•James Bartlett :terminal:
•For example, some of my ancestors were horse thieves, and the surname from that part of the family is a pseudonym that helped them evade law enforcement. No veneration there.
But some of my other ancestors did amazing things in their lives, like fighting Nazis, researching infectious diseases, and building schools in Africa. Definitely veneration-worthy.
Evan Prodromou
•James Bartlett :terminal:
•Bob Wyman
•By "genealogy," I don't mean a simple cataloging of successful sex. I mean gathering, and learning from, the stories of each generation.
Mike
•Evan Prodromou
•last senpai
•Evan Prodromou
•last senpai
•Telling!
Evan Prodromou
•My guess is that a lot of it is the loaded anthropological term I used.
The answers may have been different if I'd asked if people had respect for their heritage, remembered their deceased family members with fondness, or used other phrases more in line with contemporary Western practice.
Or maybe not! I might try different wording in the future.
Evan Prodromou
•I also listed statues; named holidays; use of surnames or family names; naming children after family members; "what the founders intended"; family recipes; family traditions; genealogy; inheritance laws; historical reënactment.
Other possibilities: keepsake items; place names like streets, parks, towns, and states.
Evan Prodromou
•I have photos of family members in my house going back 3 generations.
We tell stories of those people. I've visited many of their homes, in multiple countries.
I'm named after my grandfather and my son and father are named after my great-grandfather.
I cook heritage foods, grow heritage crops, and celebrate heritage holidays. I try to trace genealogy.
I like to think that the effort and good will of my ancestors helps me and my kids today.
Graydon Hoare
•Evan Prodromou
•Ed
•Skullvalanche
•Evan Prodromou
•Skullvalanche
•Eric Forste
•Evan Prodromou
•Eric Forste
•shoofle
•Evan Prodromou
•Sarah
•Vincent 🌻🇪🇺
•Evan Prodromou
•Content warning: Angry about ancestors
ngoomie :the_cube: :genderqueer_paw:
•"ancestors" in its case aren't even necessarily people you're related to, they can be important people in a field of study one is interested in, it can be your old pet cat your family had to put down when you were 11 years old, and so on and so forth. once i knew someone who followed the same religion who venerated extinct prehistoric animals as their ancestors
veneration too doesn't have to mean bowing down to your ancestors, treating them as infallible, or what have you. it can be many many things, from simply making sure to remember ancestors and the things they did whether positive or negative, to doing work here to try and help someone who kinda sucked in life improve in the afterlife (if you believe in one anyways, i'm not so sure i do personally, this is just an example of some ways of handling ancestor work i've seen from others)
i voted "qualified yes" j... show more
"ancestors" in its case aren't even necessarily people you're related to, they can be important people in a field of study one is interested in, it can be your old pet cat your family had to put down when you were 11 years old, and so on and so forth. once i knew someone who followed the same religion who venerated extinct prehistoric animals as their ancestors
veneration too doesn't have to mean bowing down to your ancestors, treating them as infallible, or what have you. it can be many many things, from simply making sure to remember ancestors and the things they did whether positive or negative, to doing work here to try and help someone who kinda sucked in life improve in the afterlife (if you believe in one anyways, i'm not so sure i do personally, this is just an example of some ways of handling ancestor work i've seen from others)
i voted "qualified yes" just because of my probably kinda differing from the mainstream belief in what an "ancestor" even is. i'm not sure i'd personally want to do ancestor veneration in terms of honouring people i'm blood related to, but ancestor veneration that uses my religion's definition of an ancestor is much more up my alley
Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Evan Prodromou
•Chip Butty
•BradPatrick
•Evan Prodromou
•