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Maybe naïve questions: How does #UBI sits in the #MMT framework? Public spending would far exceed production in the first months/years of the policy being enacted, since it can’t replace all social benefits?

#UniversalBasicIncome #ModernMonetaryTheory

#ubi #MMT #universalbasicincome #ModernMonetaryTheory
Radio Jammor
Radio Jammor  
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First of all, your question seems to assume that UBI sits within any such thing, so for starters, I reject the premise.
And you clearly have a country in mind with your query, when it could be applied anywhere, and without your query applying.
And as there is no proposal in actuality, how do you know if it will 'exceed production' where your query refers to? And what do you mean by that, anyway?
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@Radio Jammor Let's go back to what I understand of MMT:
- Public spending is necessary for any government issuing their own currency (like the US) to put currency in circulation.
- Currency is needed to exchange goods and services produced inside the territory where this currency is used.
- Taxes at a national level are used to both increase the demand for the currency and control its total amount.
- National debt is just another way of saying "the amount of currency in circulation", which doesn't make any sense reducing unless the economy is also contracting.
- The level of public spending should then not be correlated with national income but with the gross domestic product.

Secondly, my idea of a UBI program would only replace very specific social security programs (unemployment and food stamps are two prominent examples) so the increased spending with UBI wouldn't be compensated by a significant cut of its existing spending.

In this sense, UBI doesn't particularly ruffle any MMT feathers, except maybe the last one?

@Radio Jammor
Dallas Lewis
Dallas Lewis  
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@radiojammor

Most MMT people would support a GBI. None support UBI because of the negative macroeconomic consequences you mentioned.

@Radio Jammor
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@Dallas Lewis @Radio Jammor Ah, interesting, thanks, I hear less about GBI than I hear about UBI but it sounds indeed better on paper. I have different reservations about GBI, namely that if it doesn't apply to visa holders (and I don't see it likely), then there would be an increased demand for foreign workers and pressure to make applying for nationality even harder.
@Radio Jammor @Dallas Lewis
Dallas Lewis
Dallas Lewis  
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@radiojammor

None of it will happen until we get a progressive government and our only chance of that is a Labor minority with a progressive cross bench.

@Radio Jammor
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@Dallas Lewis Same unlikelihood at the US federal level, unfortunately.
@Dallas Lewis
>sfb< SigmundFreud'sBartender
>sfb< SigmundFreud'sBartender  
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UBI is in my opinion a way to keep capitalism attempting to buy social peace.
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@>sfb< SigmundFreud'sBartender You aren't wrong, but it would still buy social peace instead of beating it into people as it does currently.
@>sfb< SigmundFreud'sBartender
Pinky Floyd
Pinky Floyd  
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two things you may want to consider in this thought exercise:

1) it wouldn't happen overnight, funds would be gradually shifted over a period of years;
2) in 2022 the federal govt (usa) spent $1.2 Trillion with a T on social services ($9000 per household).

Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@Pinky Floyd Thank you for your reply, you're probably right, I assume a rollout could start with the people who already are receiving social security benefits.

As for the social services spendings, I'd be curious to see how it's spread, do you have a web page handy?

@Pinky Floyd
Pinky Floyd
Pinky Floyd  
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sure, attached is a cool image of all the programs, it's from 2013 but still highly representative and a great visualization.

here's where the current $1.19 trillion figure comes from: https://budget.house.gov/press-release/7582/

Biden’s Budget: A Future That’s Built on Government Dependence | The U.S. House Committee on the Budget - House Budget Committee

The Official U.S. Congressional website of The Republican Budget Committee
budget.house.gov
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@A Sweet Gentleman Sorry. I'm sorry. I'm trying to remove it!
@A Sweet Gentleman
Hypolite Petovan
Hypolite Petovan  
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@Dallas Lewis @A Sweet Gentleman Thank you for the reassurance, my reply was a reference to a dril meme I don't blame you for not knowing: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Dril#2015
@A Sweet Gentleman @Dallas Lewis
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